X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao105.cox.net ([68.230.241.41] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.13) with ESMTP id 3594383 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:43:54 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.41; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo03.cox.net ([70.169.32.75]) by fed1rmmtao105.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090423174317.XATZ15318.fed1rmmtao105.cox.net@fed1rmimpo03.cox.net> for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:43:17 -0400 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo03.cox.net with bizsmtp id j5j41b00E1CvZmk045j7vS; Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:43:07 -0400 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=sVHhX_mwL0sA:10 a=IJkFiOAeDxgA:10 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=UKPAHat8AAAA:8 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=V8f2caD_yKex8hr_I-8A:9 a=FDHvZth_ZyLU54ubrr8A:7 a=Ga1BZ-A1sgTdvJVQLGqClk-txEgA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=7god_763jbgA:10 a=uDrs7E9_5-sUr_fo:21 a=-DH5ca0sU_L9TSG1:21 a=hxV6nBIgTlF7iuwX24AA:9 a=Ls8lusbMcxoZrDkjFbQA:7 a=f6x574bdJ7pV6u_s6uqfu9Z9vvgA:4 a=6Z_MHWZ6ND9FMwlm:21 a=RwadwPz0EMd6ckzs:21 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <431909E4B3F64026B45D6CD1F3A9A2A9@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 address range issue Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 10:43:04 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C9C400.47F9D810" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C9C400.47F9D810 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My EC2 tuning experience has been similar to yours. I found that mine = did not seem to work as Tracy describes in the EC2 manual. Initially my = engine never ran in the region where the MCT is RPM driven. My MCT = pointer was always MAP driven. I beleive at least in my case that a = variety of small issues combined led to this behavior. As i have = continued to tweak and refine my installation I find that it operates = more like intended. Initially all of my tuning was done based on RPM, MAP, O2, and EGTs. = When I designed and built my instrument panel Tracy's EM didnt exist so = I dont have one. Tuning it as I did resulted in acceptable engine = performance, but I knew it could be better. I installed one of Ed = Anderson's EFISM so I could get a look at what was loaded in the MCT. = Even though the engine was running OK, I found many instances of large = transitions between adjacent locations in the table. Using the EFISM I = tweaked the MCT and smoothed all of these transitions. After this I = found that the engine would idle more smoothly and at lower RPMs and I = was now running in the region where RPM drives the MCT. Another thing I found was the EC2 seems to be sensitive to location of = the MAP vacuum sources in the intake manifold. My intake uses an = essentially stock Mazda lower casting. There are existing vacuum ports = in this casting that I used to plumb the MAP sensors. In my early = debugging efforts Tracy suggested moving these taps out toward the = plenum. I tried this but there was no noticeable difference so I changed = it back. At the advice of a number of users I added some small reservoirs, = essentially a vacuum capacitor, to smooth the MAP inputs. This did = result in a slight improvement in performance. After all of the MCT tweaking using the EFISM I decided to once again = try tapping vacuum at the plenum. This time I did notice a difference = with a further improvement at idle settings (smoother and lower RPM). I = believe the less than ideal MCT tune that I started with was masking the = effect of an improved vacuum source. After the tuning and the relocation = of vacuum taps out to the plenum I was able to eliminate the vacuum = reservoirs. All of this minor tweaking has resulted in major improvements in engine = performance. In my case I dont think it would have been possible to = tweak the engine to this state of tune without the EFISM (or an EM). I = think some sort of tuning aid that provides a visual reference of what = the MCT looks like and what MCT value is being used at any given time is = essential. Being able to snag the data and review it after the fact like = Steve has done would also be incredibly useful. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: sboese=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 address range issue Attached is plot of data collected from my EC2 during a throttle = up-throttle down sequence that I sent to Tracy in mid March. The color = bars at the bottom show where the actual and expected (from the = operators manual) table addresses for the conditions at that time in the = run aren't consistent. The mismatch in the color bars at the lower RPM = and MP show areas that I questioned. Higher MP than 23" are not = accessible to me at this elevation since my engine is normally = aspirated, but the higher MP regions seem to behave as described in the = manual. As unkind as it is, I am glad to see that I am not the only one seeing = this behavior. I'm inclined to stop tearing up my installation trying = to find a problem that doesn't exist. Apparently the EC2 is just doing = things we didn't expect. Steve Boese RV6A, 13B NA, EC2, RD1A -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bobby J. Hughes Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 9:01 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 address range issue I did hear from Tracy and he agrees I should not be seeing address 37 = under this condition. Will work on it again next week after SNF. Bobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 7:46 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 address range issue Bobby,=20 You may want to post your message on the EC-2/EM-2 list also. =20 Mark On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Bobby J. Hughes = wrote: Bill, I tested moving the rpm / map threshold (mode 7A) from 2500 to = 3000,4000,2000 and 1200. I was still seeing a problem in this address = range. Not sure it was the same exact problem but same symptoms. Tune it = richer one time and then next time it need to be leaned. With the MAP at = 12.5 and RPM at 2270 I would expect to using address 26 or 27 not 37. = Address range 32-63 are for above 13" MAP and rpm between 2500 and 3800. = 12.5" and 2270 rpm does not meet that condition. But it is above 10" = MAP. Is that a third condition? I had the same experience as you reported with mixture address gaps = when tuning. I skip from about 42 to 72 when slowly advancing the = throttle one address at a time. Advance the throttle quickly and the = engine would miss and cough. I set the skipped address range back to = near 0 and can advance the throttle quickly with little hesitation. I = think it will need to be fine tuned in flight. Bobby -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bill Schertz Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:40 PM=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 address range issue Bobby, On my EC-2, the map table changes from low table to high table at 2400 = rpm. I don't have a super charger, and my EC-2 may not be the same model = as yours, as Tracy keeps making changes/improvements. You are seeing one reading at 3010 rpm and another at 2270, these span = the area where mine (according to manual) switches between low and high = map tables. Bill Schertz KIS Cruiser #4045 N343BS ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:20 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] EC2 address range issue I sent an email to Tracy but he's at SNF this week and not sure he = will see it until next week. Though I would run this by the group. Mixture Correction Table address 32-41 are giving me problems. Here = is an example of what I am seeing. Address 37 , MAP 12.1, RPM 3010, Val +26, O2- 14.5 Tuned perfect. = Move the throttle up and down the map table and engine starts to run = poor in the address range. Adjust throttle back to Address 37 and things = have changed. Address 37, MAP 12.5, RPM 2270, VAL +26, O2- 12.5 Tuned rich. I have tuned this range a dozen or more times. It also happens to be = right in my taxi range.=20 Ground run settings. Prop in fixed mode at high rpm setting. Supercharger 1" bypass open so no air is being compressed in = manifold. Prop and supercharger settings do not seem to make any difference = with this problem. I played around with mode 7A changing the rpm vs manifold reference = points but did not seem to make a difference. I can idle at 10" MAP and 1200 rpm. Any ideas? Bobby Hughes (last item before flight) -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_00CD_01C9C400.47F9D810 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My EC2 tuning experience has been = similar to yours.=20 I found that mine did not seem to work as Tracy describes in the EC2 = manual.=20 Initially my engine never ran in the region where the MCT is RPM driven. = My MCT=20 pointer was always MAP driven. I beleive at least in my case that a = variety of=20 small issues combined led to this behavior. As i have continued to tweak = and=20 refine my installation I find that it operates more like = intended.
 
Initially all of my tuning was done = based on RPM,=20 MAP, O2, and EGTs. When I designed and built my instrument = panel Tracy's EM=20 didnt exist so I dont have one. Tuning it as I did resulted in = acceptable engine=20 performance, but I knew it could be better. I installed one of Ed = Anderson's=20 EFISM so I could get a look at what was loaded in the MCT. Even = though the=20 engine was running OK, I found many instances of large transitions = between=20 adjacent locations in the table. Using the EFISM I tweaked the MCT = and=20 smoothed all of these transitions. After this I found that the engine = would idle=20 more smoothly and at lower RPMs and I was now running in the region = where RPM=20 drives the MCT.
 
Another thing I found was = the EC2 seems=20 to be sensitive to location of the MAP vacuum sources in the intake = manifold. My intake uses an essentially stock Mazda lower casting. There = are=20 existing vacuum ports in this casting that I used to plumb the MAP = sensors. In=20 my early debugging efforts Tracy suggested moving these taps out toward = the=20 plenum. I tried this but there was no noticeable difference so I changed = it=20 back.
 
At the advice of a number of users I = added some=20 small reservoirs, essentially a vacuum capacitor, to smooth the MAP = inputs. This=20 did result in a slight improvement in performance.
 
After all of the MCT tweaking using the = EFISM I=20 decided to once again try tapping vacuum at the plenum. This time I did = notice a=20 difference with a further improvement at idle settings (smoother and = lower RPM).=20 I believe the less than ideal MCT tune that I started with was masking = the=20 effect of an improved vacuum source. After the tuning and the relocation = of=20 vacuum taps out to the plenum I was able to eliminate the vacuum=20 reservoirs.
 
All of this minor tweaking has resulted = in major=20 improvements in engine performance. In my case I dont think it would = have been=20 possible to tweak the engine to this state of tune without the EFISM (or = an EM).=20 I think some sort of tuning aid that provides a visual reference of what = the MCT=20 looks like and what MCT value is being used at any given time is = essential.=20 Being able to snag the data and review it after the fact like Steve has = done=20 would also be incredibly useful.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 sboese =
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 = 8:13=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 = address=20 range issue

Attached is = plot of=20 data collected from my EC2 during a throttle up-throttle down sequence = that I=20 sent to Tracy in mid March.  The color bars at the bottom show = where the=20 actual and expected (from the operators manual) table addresses for = the=20 conditions at that time in the run aren=92t consistent.  The = mismatch in=20 the color bars at the lower RPM and MP show areas that I = questioned. =20 Higher MP than 23=94 are not accessible to me at this elevation since = my engine=20 is normally aspirated, but the higher MP regions seem to behave as = described=20 in the manual.

 

As unkind = as it is, I=20 am glad to see that I am not the only one seeing this behavior.  = I=92m=20 inclined to stop tearing up my installation trying to find a problem = that=20 doesn=92t exist.  Apparently the EC2 is just doing things we = didn=92t=20 expect.

 

 Steve = Boese

RV6A, 13B = NA, EC2,=20 RD1A

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bobby J. = Hughes
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 = 9:01=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: EC2 address range issue

 

I did=20 hear from Tracy and he agrees I should not be seeing address 37 under = this=20 condition. Will work on it again next week after = SNF.

 

Bobby

 

 

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark = Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, April 22, 2009 = 7:46=20 AM
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: EC2 address range issue

Bobby, =

 

You may want to post your = message on the=20 EC-2/EM-2 list also. 

Mark

On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 9:06 = AM, Bobby J.=20 Hughes <bhughes@qnsi.net>=20 wrote:

Bill,

 

I tested=20 moving the rpm / map threshold (mode 7A) from 2500 to 3000,4000,2000 = and 1200.=20 I was still seeing a problem in this address range. Not sure it was = the same=20 exact problem but same symptoms. Tune it richer one time and then next = time it=20 need to be leaned. With the MAP at 12.5 and RPM at 2270 I would expect = to=20 using address 26 or 27 not 37. Address range 32-63 are for above 13" = MAP and=20 rpm between 2500 and 3800. 12.5" and 2270 rpm does not meet that = condition.=20 But it is above 10" MAP. Is that a third = condition?

 

I had=20 the same experience as you reported with mixture address gaps when = tuning. I=20 skip from about 42 to 72 when slowly advancing the throttle one = address at a=20 time. Advance the throttle quickly and the engine would miss and = cough. I set=20 the skipped address range back to near 0 and can advance the = throttle=20 quickly with little hesitation. I think it will need to be fine tuned = in=20 flight.

 

 

Bobby

 

From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bill = Schertz
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 = 8:40 PM=20


To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: EC2 address range issue

Bobby,

On my EC-2, the map = table changes=20 from low table to high table at 2400 rpm. I don't have a super = charger, and my=20 EC-2 may not be the same model as yours, as Tracy keeps making=20 changes/improvements.

 

You are seeing one = reading at 3010=20 rpm and another at 2270, these span the area where mine (according to = manual)=20 switches between low and high map tables.

Bill Schertz
KIS Cruiser=20 #4045
N343BS

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Bobby J.=20 Hughes

To: Rotary motors in aircraft =

Sent:=20 Tuesday, April 21, 2009 8:20 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] EC2 address range issue

 

I sent an email to = Tracy but=20 he's at SNF this week and not sure he will see it until next = week.=20 Though I would run this by the group.

 

Mixture Correction = Table address=20 32-41 are giving me problems. Here is an example of what I am=20 seeing.

 

Address 37 , MAP = 12.1, RPM=20 3010, Val +26, O2- 14.5  Tuned perfect. Move the throttle up = and down=20 the map table and engine starts to run poor in the address range. = Adjust=20 throttle back to Address 37 and things have = changed.

Address 37,  MAP = 12.5, RPM=20 2270, VAL +26, O2- 12.5  Tuned rich.

 

I have tuned this = range a dozen=20 or more times. It also happens to be right in my taxi range.=20

 

Ground run=20 settings.

 

Prop in fixed mode at = high rpm=20 setting.

Supercharger 1" bypass = open so no air is being compressed in=20 manifold.

Prop and supercharger = settings=20 do not seem to make any difference with this=20 problem.

I played around with = mode 7A=20 changing the rpm vs manifold reference points but did not seem to = make a=20 difference.

 

I can idle at 10" MAP = and 1200=20 rpm.

 

 

 

Any=20 ideas?

 

Bobby=20 Hughes

(last item before=20 flight)

 

=

 

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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