X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fmailhost02.isp.att.net ([207.115.11.52] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3496200 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:11:37 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.115.11.52; envelope-from=keltro@att.net Received: from fwebmail32.isp.att.net ([207.115.9.162]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc02) with SMTP id <20090216221100H0200iiit2e>; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:11:01 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [207.115.9.162] Received: from [72.209.175.72] by fwebmail32.isp.att.net; Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:11:00 +0000 From: "Kelly Troyer" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Second flight Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:11:00 +0000 Message-Id: <021620092211.15644.4999E474000375EA00003D1C22193100029B0A02D29B9B0EBF019D9B040A05@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Oct 30 2008) X-Authenticated-Sender: a2VsdHJvQGF0dC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15644_1234822260_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15644_1234822260_0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I did not read Tracy's post on the subject of stage point before I sent = my opinion but he stated he had raised his stage point to about 20-21 inches MP.......= ........... -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" : -----= ---------=20 =EF=BB=BF=20 Kelly, I thought about raising it, but not sure where I would raise it to? At som= e point I think its inevitable that no matter where its set, you'll end up = there. I'm inclined to leave it where it is, try to tune it a little better= , and gain some flight experience with it to see if it really is a problem = set where it is or if I can work around it. One of the issues I had this past weekend was that the EC2 completely lost= the staging point. I have no idea how or why. I was using Mode 9 to fine t= une things. Thought I had finally cured the hiccup at the staging point as = it ran very smooth where previously it had always stumbled a little bit. Th= en I ran the throttle on up and for some reason my tach readout on my engin= e monitor went to 0 when I hit 4600 RPM. I quit and went home. Thought abou= t it some and theorized that if the secondary injectors were no longer work= ing then it could be that at high power the duty cycle on the primaries was= so high it wouldnt trigger the tach (my tach is tied to one of the primari= es). Went back the next day and tested - sure enough the secondaries were n= ot coming on. Reset the staging point on the EC2 and the staging hiccup was= back. And the tach is once again functional. I cant explain what happened = to cause it to barf. Without putting a scope on the injector driver line I = dont know for sure what the duty cycle is, but if its high enough to kill t= he tach I dont think I want to run it that high. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 10:53 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Second flight Mike, Great report !!................Keep them coming as I and most of the g= roup that are not=20 in the air yet live for the flight reports of those of the group that are i= n the air........The=20 info on tuning the EC2 is invaluable reference for when each of us takes to= the air......... You probably have already thought of this but raising the injector sta= ging point (MP) is a way to avoid having the EC2 trying to stage at your approach power set= ting...IMHO The group are always happy to hear any flight report even if it is on= ly for a Saturday morning $100.00 hamburger run !!................=20=20 -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" : -----= ---------=20 Spent the last month addressing issues uncovered during my first flight. To= day was the day for flight number 2. OAT was in the low 50s. Temps during c= limbout up to 6,000 were good. Leveled out and stayed at full throttle for = a couple of minutes just to see what happens. Saw indicated airspeed in the= mid 150KTS range. RPM was 5500. Both were still creeping up when I throttl= ed back. Looks like I may be slightly over-propped. Temps still fine. Throttled back to 5000 RPM and just flew racetracks over the airport for a= n hour. My flight test area is very restrictive. I've got a huge piece of t= he desert to the east but have to cross a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 miles = of rugged terrain to get there. Not until I have a few more hours on it in = flight and have 100% confidence. I have the Mexican border 2 miles south, C= lass B 2 miles north and the Pacific Ocean 5 miles west. So racetracks over= the airport are going to be the norm for a few hours. So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM, roughly 20 - 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. Temps= 170 on the coolant and 168 on the oil. I've already met my goal for this a= irplane on the second flight - this airplane is a little faster than my old= RV-6A was at equal power settings. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in it. Looks like the revised static system has solved my airspeed indication pro= blems. Stall speeds are in line with the Vans book numbers and airspeed cor= relates pretty well with the GPS groundspeed. Still need more left trim tab= . The engine ran great. Anyone trying to tune up Tracy's EC2 without either = having an EM2/3 or Ed Anderson's EFISM, you're wasting your time. I spent t= he better part of a year tweaking the MAP table and thought I had it pretty= well done. On my first flight I spent a fair amount of time fiddling with = mixtures and had a couple of rough running spots. I installed Ed's EFISM an= d spent 2 days tweaking. In the process I got the engine running smoother t= han it ever has and now have it idling nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lo= wer than I was ever able to get it previously. In my opinion you really HAV= E to have some sort of indication of what is loaded in the MAP table to eff= ectively tune it. The only hiccup was when I came in to land. Tower asked for me to extend m= y downwind for traffic so I added a little power to hold altitude. And ende= d up setting the power right at the injector staging point, which still see= ms to run a little lean. Nothing like having the engine cough just as the r= unway is receding over your left shoulder. Took me a couple of seconds to r= ealize what was going on and then added a little power and that cleared it = up. Then managed to bounce the landing. How many landings can I log on one app= roach? Oh well, I guess I'm a little tailwheel rusty. And without the cowl = cheeks the view over the nose is very different so I havent quite got the p= itch attitude figured out yet. Other impressions. The airplane is loud, but not painfully so. At least no= t from the pilot's seat. The handling and control power still seem quite a = bit better than my RV-6A (which was great). Not really clear why but most o= f my flying in the -6A I had someone in the right seat so maybe the weight?= Other than the rudder, the airplane flies perfectly straight. All things considered I'm real happy. This flight was considerably less st= ressful than the first and I actually was able to enjoy it. I honestly dont= remember a lot of the first flight. Also, I took my glider data logger wit= h me on this flight. I havent downloaded it yet, but when I do I'll know mo= re about speeds, climb rate, etc. Dont know how you guys feel about these flight reports. Give me some feedb= ack if you want more as my testing progresses. I know that I like reading a= bout other's flight experiences as it motivated me to keep going. After 13 = years of building I'll tell you, its worth it. Now I wish I'd pressed harde= r to get it done sooner. Next flight will have to wait until I get gear leg stiffeners added. Class= ic RV - pretty bad shimmy on the roll out after landing. 38.5 hours to go! Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15644_1234822260_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15644_1234822260_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_15644_1234822260_1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
   I did not read Tracy's post on the subject of stage point= before I sent my opinion
but he stated he had raised his stage point to about 20-21 inches MP..= ................
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" <rv-4mi= ke@cox.net>: --------------

=EF=BB=BF
Kelly,
 
 I thought about raising it, but not = sure where I would raise it to? At some point I think its inevitable that n= o matter where its set, you'll end up there. I'm inclined to leave it where= it is, try to tune it a little better, and gain some flight experience wit= h it to see if it really is a problem set where it is or if I can work arou= nd it.
 
 One of the issues I had this past we= ekend was that the EC2 completely lost the staging point. I have no idea ho= w or why. I was using Mode 9 to fine tune things. Thought I had finally cur= ed the hiccup at the staging point as it ran very smooth where previously i= t had always stumbled a little bit. Then I ran the throttle on up and for s= ome reason my tach readout on my engine monitor went to 0 when I hit 4600 R= PM. I quit and went home. Thought about it some and theorized that if the s= econdary injectors were no longer working then it could be that at high pow= er the duty cycle on the primaries was so high it wouldnt trigger the = tach (my tach is tied to one of the primaries). Went back the next day and = tested - sure enough the secondaries were not coming on. Reset the staging = point on the EC2 and the staging hiccup was back. And the tach is once agai= n functional. I cant explain what happened to cause it to barf. Without put= ting a scope on the injector driver line I dont know for sure what the duty= cycle is, but if its high enough to kill the tach I dont think I want to r= un it that high.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 10:5= 3 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Second flight

  Mike,
     Great report !!................Keep them comi= ng as I and most of the group that are not
in the air yet live for the flight reports of those of the group that = are in the air........The
info on tuning the EC2 is invaluable reference for when each of u= s takes to the air.........
 
     You probably have already thought of this but= raising the injector staging point (MP)
is a way to avoid having the EC2 trying to stage at you= r approach power setting...IMHO
 
      The group are always happy to hear any = flight report even if it is only for a Saturday
morning $100.00 hamburger run !!................  
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke Delta"_1= 3B ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifol= d



 
-------------- Original message from "Mike Wills" <rv-4mi= ke@cox.net>: --------------

Spent the last month addressing issues unc= overed during my first flight. Today was the day for flight number 2. OAT w= as in the low 50s. Temps during climbout up to 6,000 were good. Leveled out= and stayed at full throttle for a couple of minutes just to see what happe= ns. Saw indicated airspeed in the mid 150KTS range. RPM was 5500. Both were= still creeping up when I throttled back. Looks like I may be slightly over= -propped. Temps still fine.
 
 Throttled back to 5000 RPM and just = flew racetracks over the airport for an hour. My flight test area is very r= estrictive. I've got a huge piece of the desert to the east but have to cro= ss a 3500' mountain and 30 - 40 miles of rugged terrain to get there. Not u= ntil I have a few more hours on it in flight and have 100% confidence. I ha= ve the Mexican border 2 miles south, Class B 2 miles north and the Pacific = Ocean 5 miles west. So racetracks over the airport are going to be the norm= for a few hours.
 
 So, 5,000', 5,000 RPM, roughly 20 - = 21" MAP, and indicating 140 KTS. Temps 170 on the coolant and 168 on the oi= l. I've already met my goal for this airplane on the second flight - t= his airplane is a little faster than my old RV-6A was at equal power settin= gs. The -6A had a 160 HP Lyc in it.
 
 Looks like the revised static system= has solved my airspeed indication problems. Stall speeds are in line with = the Vans book numbers and airspeed correlates pretty well with the GPS grou= ndspeed. Still need more left trim tab.
 
 The engine ran great. Anyone trying = to tune up Tracy's EC2 without either having an EM2/3 or Ed Anderson's EFIS= M, you're wasting your time. I spent the better part of a year tweaking the= MAP table and thought I had it pretty well done. On my first flight I spen= t a fair amount of time fiddling with mixtures and had a couple of rough ru= nning spots. I installed Ed's EFISM and spent 2 days tweaking. In the proce= ss I got the engine running smoother than it ever has and now have it idlin= g nicely at 1350 RPM. Thats 300 RPM lower than I was ever able to get it pr= eviously. In my opinion you really HAVE to have some sort of indicatio= n of what is loaded in the MAP table to effectively tune it.
 
 The only hiccup was when I came in t= o land. Tower asked for me to extend my downwind for traffic so I added a l= ittle power to hold altitude. And ended up setting the power right at the i= njector staging point, which still seems to run a little lean. Nothing like= having the engine cough just as the runway is receding over your left shou= lder. Took me a couple of seconds to realize what was going on and then add= ed a little power and that cleared it up.
 
 Then managed to bounce the landing. = How many landings can I log on one approach? Oh well, I guess I'm a little = tailwheel rusty. And without the cowl cheeks the view over the nose is very= different so I havent quite got the pitch attitude figured out yet.=
 
 Other impressions. The airplane is l= oud, but not painfully so. At least not from the pilot's seat. The handling= and control power still seem quite a bit better than my RV-6A (which was g= reat). Not really clear why but most of my flying in the -6A I had someone = in the right seat so maybe the weight? Other than the rudder, the airplane = flies perfectly straight.
 
 All things considered I'm real happy= . This flight was considerably less stressful than the first and I actually= was able to enjoy it. I honestly dont remember a lot of the first flight. = Also, I took my glider data logger with me on this flight. I havent downloa= ded it yet, but when I do I'll know more about speeds, climb rate, etc.
 
 Dont know how you guys feel about th= ese flight reports. Give me some feedback if you want more as my testing pr= ogresses. I know that I like reading about other's flight experiences as it= motivated me to keep going. After 13 years of building I'll tell you, its = worth it. Now I wish I'd pressed harder to get it done sooner.
 
 Next flight will have to wait until = I get gear leg stiffeners added. Classic RV - pretty bad shimmy on the roll= out after landing. 38.5 hours to go!
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
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