X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3483254 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:01:38 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090209010059.DQVI21761.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2009 01:00:59 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 20:00:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C98A27.F5ED3150" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: AcmKPQWy0CPGOXirRpuhuFfjFqW4VQAFEmXA In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090209010059.DQVI21761.cdptpa-omta01.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C98A27.F5ED3150 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok, George, Sound right. The point is generally the higher the runner velocity the better - until you start hitting velocities that can form shock waves and choke the flow. That speed is or course dependent on cross sectional area and mass flow rate. But, from what I have read 300 fps is a "good" velocity for a normal (not race) piston engine. Since the rotary has a longer intake "stroke" the velocity in its runners can probably be a bit less and still give good induction. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW _____ From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 5:31 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility Ed A. Looking at my maths it appears to get over 200 mph inlet velocity you need to go to 1.33" , I think 1 /14" will give you about 228mph. The 44mm gives about 100 mph( cruise) to 120 mph (wot). I also did some calcs on the inlet opening and got 21+" given the size of the inlet and manifold tube using 100 mph velocity. Lynn, I got info that Mistral measured 7.8 Bar absolute just near the exhaust opening. I tried to work out (on paper) the optimum exhaust length but it got messy and my brain froze-up. George (down under) ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Gietzen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:20 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility Al, How is your set up different than the one Ed A. had that didn't work too well? It was also one throttle split into two runners. Bryan I can't really answer that question as I don't know the details of Ed's design, and there may be differences that neither of us understands. My induction system is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop feeds (through a screen filter) an air box that I made from fiberglass. It provides smooth transition (in lieu of air horns) to the TB which has 44 mm barrels. Then divides through a custom short manifold to the rotors. On set of injectors in the TB, the other stock injectors in the side housings. I run the injectors in the TB as 'primary' because they give me smoother low end operation. George - I don't recall don't any detailed analysis in choosing the TB diameter. I did look at the air velocity, and discussed with Paul Yaw and David Akins; and made a 'best guess' for good breathing, and good throttle response coming off low end. A lot of discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, however; my primary consideration was simplicity and compact installation for both. The system gives me easy start both hot and cold; and dyno tests show very flat torque response from about 2500 rpm all the way to 7000, with the corresponding nearly linear rise in HP to 300 hp at 7000 rpm. Just started to see signs of a break in the power curve at 7000 - which is as far up as we tested. This engine has the 9.0 : 1 compression turbo rotors. It is likely that longer runners, higher compression rotors, tuned exhaust could get some more horses, but I have all I need for the application. If you look at reinforcement of intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, it turns out that the 12-13" that I have from port to air box is a good distance at 5500 to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the air box to direct these pulses, so whether I get any help from that is open to debate. So that's about all I know. I'm happy it worked well on the first try. Good luck on your Renesis. BTW; the intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 lbs. It was a serious challenge to fabricate. Fortunately, on the third try, I found a very skilled machinist/welder who got it port-matched at both flanges, and got the thing welded up. I then took it to a heat treatment shop, and had it heat-treated back to T-6 condition. Al G --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Al Gietzen wrote: From: Al Gietzen Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM Bryan; I use a 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels. One barrel (which divides into the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to work quite well. As Ed mentioned, and supported by Paul Yaw?s work, high velocity in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could cut the thing in half and use 2 barrels? I use the injector port in the TB for MSD (Rochester) injectors, and use the stock primary in the housings. Al -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility Hello all, I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch pic) at a very low price. I have a couple questions for the group. The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.). Is this too big to the point that they would be incompatible with the injectors? I plan on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners. Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors. Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis injectors? This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox thus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing standpoint. Thanks in advance, Bryan RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear) _____ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C98A27.F5ED3150 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ok, = George,

 

Sound right.=A0=A0 The point is = generally the higher the runner velocity the better - until you start hitting = velocities that can form shock waves and choke the flow.=A0 That speed is or course = dependent on cross sectional area and mass flow rate.=A0 But, from what I have read = 300 fps is a “good” velocity =A0for a normal (not race) piston = engine.=A0 Since the rotary has a longer intake “stroke” the velocity in its = runners can probably be a bit less and still give good induction. =

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of George Lendich
Sent: Sunday, February = 08, 2009 5:31 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility

 

Ed A.

Looking at my maths it appears to get over 200 mph = inlet velocity you need to go to 1.33" , I think 1 /14" will = give you about 228mph. The 44mm gives about 100  mph( cruise) to 120 mph = (wot).

 

I also did some calcs on the inlet opening and got = 21+" given the size of the inlet and manifold tube using 100 mph = velocity.

 

Lynn, I got info that Mistral measured 7.8 Bar absolute just near the exhaust opening. I = tried to work out (on paper) the optimum exhaust length but it got messy and = my brain froze-up.

George (down under)

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Al = Gietzen

Sent: Monday, = February 09, 2009 1:20 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake = possibility

 

 

Al,

How is your set up different than the one = Ed A. had that didn't work too well?  It was = also

one throttle split into two = runners.

Bryan

 

I = can’t really answer that question as I don’t know the details of Ed’s = design, and there may be differences that neither of us understands. =

 

My induction = system is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop feeds (through a screen = filter) an air box  that I made from fiberglass. It provides smooth = transition (in lieu of air horns) to the TB which has 44 mm barrels. Then divides through a custom short manifold to the rotors. On set of injectors in = the TB, the other stock injectors in the side housings. I run the injectors in = the TB as ‘primary’ because they give me smoother low end = operation.

 

George = – I don’t recall don’t any detailed analysis in choosing the = TB diameter.  I did look at the air velocity, and discussed with = Paul Yaw and David Akins; and made a ‘best guess’ for good = breathing, and good throttle response coming off low = end.

 

A lot of = discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, however; my primary = consideration was simplicity and compact installation for both. The system gives me easy = start both hot and cold; and dyno tests show very flat torque response from = about 2500 rpm all the way to 7000, with the corresponding nearly linear = rise in HP to 300 hp at 7000 rpm. Just started to see signs of a break in the = power curve at 7000 – which is as far up as we tested. This engine has = the 9.0 : 1 compression turbo rotors.

 

It is likely = that longer runners, higher compression rotors, tuned exhaust could get = some more horses, but I have all I need for the application.  If you look = at reinforcement of intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, it turns out that the 12-13” that I have from port to air box is a good distance at = 5500 to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the air box to direct these = pulses, so whether I get any help from that is open to = debate.

 

So = that’s about all I know.  I’m happy it worked well on the first = try.  Good luck on your Renesis.

 

BTW; the = intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 lbs. It was a = serious challenge to fabricate.  Fortunately, on the third try, I found a = very skilled machinist/welder who got it port-matched at both flanges, and = got the thing welded up.  I then took it to a heat treatment shop, and = had it heat-treated back to T-6 condition.

 

Al G =

 

 



--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Al Gietzen = <ALVentures@cox.net><= /b> wrote:

From: Al = Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility
To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM

Bryan;

I use a = 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels.  One barrel (which divides into = the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to work quite well.  As Ed = mentioned, and supported by Paul Yaw=A2s work, high velocity in the barrel is a good = thing. Maybe you could cut the thing in half and use 2 barrels? I use the = injector port in the TB for MSD (Rochester) injectors, and use the stock primary in the = housings.

Al

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Saturday, = February 07, 2009 5:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = renesis intake possibility

 

Hello all,

I have a chance to purchase a TWM = throttle body(see attch pic) at a very low price.  I have a = couple questions for the group.

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 = in.).  Is this too big to the point that they would be incompatible = with the injectors?  I plan on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in = runners.

 

Also, the bosses are sized for = Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors.  Does this necessarily eliminate = my using the stock Renesis injectors?

 

This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox  thus simplifying the intake system = from a manufacturing standpoint.

 

Thanks in = advance,

Bryan

RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the = pipeline I hear)

 

 

 

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html



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The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

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