X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.187] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTPS id 3483153 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:42:08 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.187; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (d220-236-255-172.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.255.172]) by mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n18MfMRD021682 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:41:24 +1100 Message-ID: <6A6EDF5B16CE4BDDBFFEEC752D861F51@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:41:25 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0058_01C98A92.3140D300" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0617-3, 04/28/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C98A92.3140D300 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tracy, Not a bad option at all, more like having 2 x 2" TB given the sq area of = each but, better velocity than the 2". George ( down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Tracy Crook=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 3:24 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Induction System; was: renesis intake = possibility As much as I like clean, straight, individual runners, 4 of those big = TBs are probably overkill. Two would probably work fine at the rpms we = run. =20 They were at the small end of the scale but I originally use three = 34mm sidedraft carbs on a 13B. It made an estimated 160 HP at around = 6250 RPM. The center carb fed both rotors at the center housing which = is not a good setup. It was just easy to fabricate at the time. Tracy =20 On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Bryan Winberry = wrote: Al, Thanks for the info. I really appreciate you and all the = others that took the time to weigh in. This a great forum! Looks like this TB might be too much with all 4 (maybe not), = but if necessary, could be halved and most likely be sufficient. Bryan --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Al Gietzen wrote: From: Al Gietzen Subject: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake = possibility To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:20 AM Al, =20 How is your set up different than the one Ed A. had that = didn't work too well? It was also one throttle split into two runners. Bryan =20 I can't really answer that question as I don't know the = details of Ed's design, and there may be differences that neither of us = understands.=20 =20 My induction system is shown in the attached photo. A ram = scoop feeds (through a screen filter) an air box that I made from = fiberglass. It provides smooth transition (in lieu of air horns) to the = TB which has 44 mm barrels. Then divides through a custom short manifold = to the rotors. On set of injectors in the TB, the other stock injectors = in the side housings. I run the injectors in the TB as 'primary' because = they give me smoother low end operation.=20 =20 George =E2=80=93 I don't recall don't any detailed analysis = in choosing the TB diameter. I did look at the air velocity, and = discussed with Paul Yaw and David Akins; and made a 'best guess' for = good breathing, and good throttle response coming off low end.=20 =20 A lot of discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, = however; my primary consideration was simplicity and compact = installation for both. The system gives me easy start both hot and cold; = and dyno tests show very flat torque response from about 2500 rpm all = the way to 7000, with the corresponding nearly linear rise in HP to 300 = hp at 7000 rpm. Just started to see signs of a break in the power curve = at 7000 =E2=80=93 which is as far up as we tested. This engine has the = 9.0 : 1 compression turbo rotors.=20 =20 It is likely that longer runners, higher compression rotors, = tuned exhaust could get some more horses, but I have all I need for the = application. If you look at reinforcement of intakes pulses on a = 3-rotor, it turns out that the 12-13" that I have from port to air box = is a good distance at 5500 to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the = air box to direct these pulses, so whether I get any help from that is = open to debate.=20 =20 So that's about all I know. I'm happy it worked well on the = first try. Good luck on your Renesis.=20 =20 BTW; the intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only = about 2 lbs. It was a serious challenge to fabricate. Fortunately, on = the third try, I found a very skilled machinist/welder who got it = port-matched at both flanges, and got the thing welded up. I then took = it to a heat treatment shop, and had it heat-treated back to T-6 = condition.=20 =20 Al G=20 =20 =20 --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Al Gietzen wrote:=20 From: Al Gietzen Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM=20 Bryan; I use a 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels. One = barrel (which divides into the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to = work quite well. As Ed mentioned, and supported by Paul Yaw=CA=BCs = work, high velocity in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could cut = the thing in half and use 2 barrels? I use the injector port in the TB = for MSD (Rochester) injectors, and use the stock primary in the = housings.=20 Al =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility=20 =20 Hello all, I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see = attch pic) at a very low price. I have a couple questions for the = group. The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.). Is this too big = to the point that they would be incompatible with the injectors? I plan = on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners. Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or = Lucas injectors. Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock = Renesis injectors? This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight = airbox thus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing = standpoint. Thanks in advance, Bryan RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear) =20 =20 -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0058_01C98A92.3140D300 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =EF=BB=BF
Tracy,
Not a bad option at all, more like = having 2 x 2" TB=20 given the sq area of each but, better velocity than the 2".
George ( down under)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Tracy=20 Crook
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 = 3:24=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Induction=20 System; was: renesis intake possibility

As much as I like clean, straight,  individual = runners, 4=20 of those big TBs are probably overkill.  Two would probably work = fine at=20 the rpms we run. 

   They were at the small end = of the=20 scale but I originally use three 34mm sidedraft carbs on a 13B.  = It made=20 an estimated 160 HP at around 6250 RPM.  The center carb fed both = rotors=20 at the center housing which is not a good setup.  It was just = easy to=20 fabricate at the time.

Tracy  

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Bryan = Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net>=20 wrote:
Al,
Thanks for the info.  I really appreciate you and = all the=20 others that took the time to weigh in.
This a great forum!
 
Looks like this TB might be too much with all 4 (maybe = not), but=20 if necessary, could be halved and most likely be = sufficient.
 
Bryan
 

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>=20 wrote:
From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake = possibility

To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" = <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date:=20 Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:20 AM


 

Al,

How is your set up different than = the one Ed=20 A. had that didn't work too well?  It was=20 also

one throttle split into two=20 runners.

Bryan

=20

I can't=20 really answer that question as I don't know the details of = Ed's=20 design, and there may be differences that neither of us = understands.=20

=20

My=20 induction system is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop = feeds=20 (through a screen filter) an air box  that I made from=20 fiberglass. It provides smooth transition (in lieu of air = horns) to=20 the TB which has 44 mm barrels. Then divides through a = custom short=20 manifold to the rotors. On set of injectors in the TB, the = other=20 stock injectors in the side housings. I run the injectors in = the TB=20 as 'primary' because they give me smoother low end=20 operation.

=20

George =E2=80=93=20 I don't recall don't any detailed analysis in choosing the = TB=20 diameter.  I did look at the air velocity, and = discussed with=20 Paul=20 Yaw and=20 David Akins; and made a 'best guess' for good breathing, and = good=20 throttle response coming off low end.

=20

A lot of=20 discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, however; = my=20 primary consideration was simplicity and compact = installation for=20 both. The system gives me easy start both hot and cold; and = dyno=20 tests show very flat torque response from about 2500 rpm all = the way=20 to 7000, with the corresponding nearly linear rise in HP to = 300 hp=20 at 7000 rpm. Just started to see signs of a break in the = power curve=20 at 7000 =E2=80=93 which is as far up as we tested. This = engine has the 9.0 :=20 1 compression turbo rotors.

=20

It is=20 likely that longer runners, higher compression rotors, tuned = exhaust=20 could get some more horses, but I have all I need for the=20 application.  If you look at reinforcement=20 of intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, it turns out that the 12-13" = that I=20 have from port to air box is a good distance at 5500 to 6000 = rpm. I=20 made no effort to design the air box to direct these pulses, = so=20 whether I get any help from that is open to = debate.=20

=20

So that's=20 about all I know.  I'm happy it worked well on the = first=20 try.  Good luck on your Renesis.

=20

BTW; the=20 intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 = lbs. It was=20 a serious challenge to fabricate.  Fortunately, on the = third=20 try, I found a very skilled machinist/welder who got it = port-matched=20 at both flanges, and got the thing welded up.  I then = took it=20 to a heat treatment shop, and had it heat-treated back to = T-6=20 condition.

=20

Al G=20

=20

=20



--- On Sat, = 2/7/09, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>=20 wrote:

From: Al Gietzen = <ALVentures@cox.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: renesis intake possibility
To: "Rotary motors in = aircraft"=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date:=20 Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM

Bryan;

I use a=20 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels.  One = barrel=20 (which divides into the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem = to work=20 quite well.  As Ed mentioned, and supported by Paul=20 Yaw=CA=BCs work,=20 high velocity in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you = could cut=20 the thing in half and use 2 barrels? I use the injector = port in=20 the TB for MSD (Rochester)=20 injectors, and use the stock primary in the=20 housings.

Al

=20

-----Original = Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan=20 Winberry
Sent:=20 Saturday, = February 07,=20 2009 = 5:57=20 AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility

Hello = all,

I have a chance to purchase = a TWM=20 throttle body(see attch pic) at a very low=20 price.  I have a couple questions for the=20 group.

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx = 1.65=20 in.).  Is this too big to the point that = they would=20 be incompatible with the injectors?  I plan on = using=20 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners.

 

Also, the bosses = are sized for=20 Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors.  Does this=20 necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis=20 injectors?

 

This setup also would allow = the use of=20 a lightweight airbox  thus simplifying the = intake=20 system from a manufacturing=20 standpoint.

 

Thanks in=20 advance,

Bryan

RV7, = Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in=20 the pipeline I hear)

 

 

=

 

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