X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.188] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTPS id 3483136 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:31:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.188; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (d220-236-255-172.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.255.172]) by mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n18MUrhD021230 for ; Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:30:55 +1100 Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:30:56 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0044_01C98A90.BA893E10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0617-3, 04/28/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C98A90.BA893E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed A. Looking at my maths it appears to get over 200 mph inlet velocity you = need to go to 1.33" , I think 1 /14" will give you about 228mph. The = 44mm gives about 100 mph( cruise) to 120 mph (wot). I also did some calcs on the inlet opening and got 21+" given the size = of the inlet and manifold tube using 100 mph velocity. Lynn, I got info that Mistral measured 7.8 Bar absolute just near the = exhaust opening. I tried to work out (on paper) the optimum exhaust = length but it got messy and my brain froze-up. George (down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 1:20 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility Al, How is your set up different than the one Ed A. had that didn't = work too well? It was also one throttle split into two runners. Bryan I can't really answer that question as I don't know the details = of Ed's design, and there may be differences that neither of us = understands.=20 My induction system is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop = feeds (through a screen filter) an air box that I made from fiberglass. = It provides smooth transition (in lieu of air horns) to the TB which has = 44 mm barrels. Then divides through a custom short manifold to the = rotors. On set of injectors in the TB, the other stock injectors in the = side housings. I run the injectors in the TB as 'primary' because they = give me smoother low end operation. George - I don't recall don't any detailed analysis in choosing = the TB diameter. I did look at the air velocity, and discussed with = Paul Yaw and David Akins; and made a 'best guess' for good breathing, = and good throttle response coming off low end. A lot of discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, = however; my primary consideration was simplicity and compact = installation for both. The system gives me easy start both hot and cold; = and dyno tests show very flat torque response from about 2500 rpm all = the way to 7000, with the corresponding nearly linear rise in HP to 300 = hp at 7000 rpm. Just started to see signs of a break in the power curve = at 7000 - which is as far up as we tested. This engine has the 9.0 : 1 = compression turbo rotors. It is likely that longer runners, higher compression rotors, = tuned exhaust could get some more horses, but I have all I need for the = application. If you look at reinforcement of intakes pulses on a = 3-rotor, it turns out that the 12-13" that I have from port to air box = is a good distance at 5500 to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the = air box to direct these pulses, so whether I get any help from that is = open to debate. So that's about all I know. I'm happy it worked well on the = first try. Good luck on your Renesis. BTW; the intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about = 2 lbs. It was a serious challenge to fabricate. Fortunately, on the = third try, I found a very skilled machinist/welder who got it = port-matched at both flanges, and got the thing welded up. I then took = it to a heat treatment shop, and had it heat-treated back to T-6 = condition. Al G=20 --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Al Gietzen wrote: From: Al Gietzen Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM Bryan; I use a 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels. One = barrel (which divides into the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to = work quite well. As Ed mentioned, and supported by Paul Yaw=A2s work, = high velocity in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could cut the = thing in half and use 2 barrels? I use the injector port in the TB for = MSD (Rochester) injectors, and use the stock primary in the housings. Al -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility Hello all, I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch = pic) at a very low price. I have a couple questions for the group. The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.). Is this too big to = the point that they would be incompatible with the injectors? I plan on = using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners. Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas = injectors. Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis = injectors? This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight = airbox thus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing = standpoint. Thanks in advance, Bryan RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear) =20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0044_01C98A90.BA893E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed A.
Looking at my maths it appears to get = over 200 mph=20 inlet velocity you need to go to 1.33" , I think 1 /14" will give = you about=20 228mph. The 44mm gives about 100  mph( cruise) to 120 mph=20 (wot).
 
I also did some calcs on the inlet = opening and got=20 21+" given the size of the inlet and manifold tube using 100 mph=20 velocity.
 
Lynn, I got info that Mistral measured = 7.8 Bar=20 absolute just near the exhaust opening. I tried to work out (on paper) = the=20 optimum exhaust length but it got messy and my brain = froze-up.
George (down under)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 = 1:20=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Induction = System;=20 was: renesis intake possibility

 

Al,

How is your set up different than the = one Ed A.=20 had that didn't work too well?  It was = also

one throttle split into two=20 runners.

Bryan

 

I = can’t=20 really answer that question as I don’t know the details of = Ed’s design,=20 and there may be differences that neither of us understands.=20

 

My = induction=20 system is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop feeds = (through a=20 screen filter) an air box  that I made from fiberglass. It = provides=20 smooth transition (in lieu of air horns) to the TB which has 44 = mm=20 barrels. Then divides through a custom short manifold to the = rotors. On=20 set of injectors in the TB, the other stock injectors in the = side=20 housings. I run the injectors in the TB as ‘primary’ = because they give=20 me smoother low end operation.

 

George – I=20 don’t recall don’t any detailed analysis in choosing = the TB=20 diameter.  I did look at the air velocity, and discussed = with=20 Paul=20 Yaw = and David=20 Akins; and made a ‘best guess’ for good breathing, = and good throttle=20 response coming off low end.

 

A = lot of=20 discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, however; my = primary=20 consideration was simplicity and compact installation for both. = The=20 system gives me easy start both hot and cold; and dyno tests = show very=20 flat torque response from about 2500 rpm all the way to 7000, = with the=20 corresponding nearly linear rise in HP to 300 hp at 7000 rpm. = Just=20 started to see signs of a break in the power curve at 7000 = – which is as=20 far up as we tested. This engine has the 9.0 : 1 compression = turbo=20 rotors.

 

It = is likely=20 that longer runners, higher compression rotors, tuned exhaust = could get=20 some more horses, but I have all I need for the = application.  If=20 you look at reinforcement of=20 intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, it turns out that the 12-13” = that I have=20 from port to air box is a good distance at 5500 to 6000 rpm. I = made no=20 effort to design the air box to direct these pulses, so whether = I get=20 any help from that is open to debate.

 

So = that’s=20 about all I know.  I’m happy it worked well on the = first try. =20 Good luck on your Renesis.

 

BTW; the=20 intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 lbs. It = was a=20 serious challenge to fabricate.  Fortunately, on the third = try, I=20 found a very skilled machinist/welder who got it port-matched at = both=20 flanges, and got the thing welded up.  I then took it to a = heat=20 treatment shop, and had it heat-treated back to T-6=20 condition.

 

Al = G=20

 

 



--- On Sat, = 2/7/09, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>=20 wrote:

From: Al=20 Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = renesis=20 intake possibility
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: = Saturday,=20 February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM

Bryan;

I = use a=20 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels.  One barrel = (which=20 divides into the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to work = quite=20 well.  As Ed mentioned, and supported by Paul=20 Yaw=A2s = work,=20 high velocity in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could = cut the=20 thing in half and use 2 barrels? I use the injector port in = the TB for=20 MSD (Rochester) = injectors, and use the stock primary in the=20 housings.

Al

 

-----Original=20 Message-----
From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bryan=20 Winberry
Sent:=20 Saturday, = February 07,=20 2009 = 5:57 = AM
To: Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility

 

Hello = all,

I have a chance to purchase a = TWM throttle=20 body(see attch pic) at a very low price.  I = have a=20 couple questions for the group.

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 = in.). =20 Is this too big to the point that they would be = incompatible=20 with the injectors?  I plan on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 = in=20 runners.

 

Also, the bosses are sized = for Bosch,=20 Rochestor, or Lucas injectors.  Does this necessarily = eliminate my using the stock Renesis=20 injectors?

 

This setup also would allow the = use of a=20 lightweight airbox  thus simplifying the intake = system=20 from a manufacturing standpoint.

 

Thanks in = advance,

Bryan

RV7, = Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the=20 pipeline I hear)

 

 

 

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and=20 UnSub:  =20 = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
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