X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail-qy0-f17.google.com ([209.85.221.17] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3482656 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 12:25:02 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.221.17; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10so2955515qyk.19 for ; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:24:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:sender:received:in-reply-to :references:date:x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=XOa4bKImqCoASY/oifU++b8l7LXf9gQGbZd9/rW1BPI=; b=tefYUwUdcEOxzxKYGOZoCKwdTFsGNBLFF7FmUSririlpJTrhawnb/cj190oIwhjoRv ox41xVvfW6BIQzxfse01L1Lm2yjhTh58JYSAhv8KEzRzf4Ba9sf7nu9ef5vZUXc4xhAH O3zKjAOxM1suF2LiFrhknADla9UESA2oE2Izs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date :x-google-sender-auth:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; b=JVsPpcAH0oaeE8X6G5dGpIexBhwYMJnK5YIBDxlOryRgRFRuvU/k7MsMQXTdzeBP+4 6jBMwHSqqeARJsY7H7ovdUtkAjJkvM41qjntqZtFaVmke/9JVoBnUfipCd6+nvdgSzdq 1yo2iTpzEafkI2Th4ZqsgUCotz1M6SOwL0I0c= MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by 10.214.115.18 with SMTP id n18mr5398351qac.372.1234113864987; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:24:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 12:24:24 -0500 X-Google-Sender-Auth: bb159f12fc605121 Message-ID: <1b4b137c0902080924m3076969fp2619cf676eb77593@mail.gmail.com> Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility From: Tracy Crook To: Rotary motors in aircraft Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015175cb2e888f4b304626b86e9 --0015175cb2e888f4b304626b86e9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As much as I like clean, straight, individual runners, 4 of those big TBs are probably overkill. Two would probably work fine at the rpms we run. They were at the small end of the scale but I originally use three 34mm sidedraft carbs on a 13B. It made an estimated 160 HP at around 6250 RPM. The center carb fed both rotors at the center housing which is not a good setup. It was just easy to fabricate at the time. Tracy On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Bryan Winberry wrote: > Al, > Thanks for the info. I really appreciate you and all the others that too= k > the time to weigh in. > This a great forum! > > Looks like this TB might be too much with all 4 (maybe not), but if > necessary, could be halved and most likely be sufficient. > > Bryan > > > --- On *Sun, 2/8/09, Al Gietzen * wrote: > > From: Al Gietzen > Subject: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:20 AM > > > > > Al, > > How is your set up different than the one Ed A. had that didn't work too > well? It was also > > one throttle split into two runners. > > Bryan > > > > I can't really answer that question as I don't know the details of Ed's > design, and there may be differences that neither of us understands. > > > > My induction system is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop feeds > (through a screen filter) an air box that I made from fiberglass. It > provides smooth transition (in lieu of air horns) to the TB which has 44 = mm > barrels. Then divides through a custom short manifold to the rotors. On s= et > of injectors in the TB, the other stock injectors in the side housings. I > run the injectors in the TB as 'primary' because they give me smoother lo= w > end operation. > > > > George =E2=80=93 I don't recall don't any detailed analysis in choosing t= he TB > diameter. I did look at the air velocity, and discussed with Paul Yaw an= d > David Akins; and made a 'best guess' for good breathing, and good throttl= e > response coming off low end. > > > > A lot of discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, however; my > primary consideration was simplicity and compact installation for both. T= he > system gives me easy start both hot and cold; and dyno tests show very fl= at > torque response from about 2500 rpm all the way to 7000, with the > corresponding nearly linear rise in HP to 300 hp at 7000 rpm. Just starte= d > to see signs of a break in the power curve at 7000 =E2=80=93 which is as = far up as > we tested. This engine has the 9.0 : 1 compression turbo rotors. > > > > It is likely that longer runners, higher compression rotors, tuned exhaus= t > could get some more horses, but I have all I need for the application. I= f > you look at reinforcement of intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, it turns out > that the 12-13" that I have from port to air box is a good distance at 55= 00 > to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the air box to direct these pulse= s, > so whether I get any help from that is open to debate. > > > > So that's about all I know. I'm happy it worked well on the first try. > Good luck on your Renesis. > > > > BTW; the intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 lbs. It > was a serious challenge to fabricate. Fortunately, on the third try, I > found a very skilled machinist/welder who got it port-matched at both > flanges, and got the thing welded up. I then took it to a heat treatment > shop, and had it heat-treated back to T-6 condition. > > > > Al G > > > > > > > > --- On *Sat, **2/7/09**, Al Gietzen * wrote: > > From: Al Gietzen > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" > Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM > > Bryan; > > I use a 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels. One barrel (which > divides into the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to work quite well. = As > Ed mentioned, and supported by Paul Yaw=CA=BCs work, high velocity in the > barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could cut the thing in half and use 2 > barrels? I use the injector port in the TB for MSD (Rochester) injectors, > and use the stock primary in the housings. > > Al > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Bryan Winberry > *Sent:* Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:57 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility > > > > Hello all, > > I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch pic) at a very > low price. I have a couple questions for the group. > > > > The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.). Is this too big to the point that > they would be incompatible with the injectors? I plan on using 1-1/8 > and1-1/4 in runners. > > > > Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors. Doe= s > this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis injectors? > > > > This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox thus > simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing standpoint. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Bryan > > RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear) > > > > > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/Lis= t.html > > --0015175cb2e888f4b304626b86e9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As much as I like clean, straight,  individual runners, 4 of those big= TBs are probably overkill.  Two would probably work fine at the rpms = we run. 

   They were at the small end of the scale = but I originally use three 34mm sidedraft carbs on a 13B.  It made an = estimated 160 HP at around 6250 RPM.  The center carb fed both rotors = at the center housing which is not a good setup.  It was just easy to = fabricate at the time.

Tracy  

On Sun, Feb 8, 2009 at = 11:37 AM, Bryan Winberry <bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Al,
Thanks for the info.  I really appreciate you and all the others = that took the time to weigh in.
This a great forum!
 
Looks like this TB might be too much with all 4 (maybe not), but if ne= cessary, could be halved and most likely be sufficient.
 
Bryan
 

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:
From: Al Gietzen <<= a href=3D"mailto:ALVentures@cox.net" target=3D"_blank">ALVentures@cox.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibilit= y

To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@la= ncaironline.net>
Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:20 AM


=  

Al,

How is your set up different than the one Ed A. had that didn't work= too well?  It was also

one throttle split into two runners.

Bryan

 

I can't really answer that= question as I don't know the details of Ed's design, and there may be diff= erences that neither of us understands.

 

My induction system is sho= wn in the attached photo. A ram scoop feeds (through a screen filter) an ai= r box  that I made from fiberglass. It provides smooth transition (in = lieu of air horns) to the TB which has 44 mm barrels. Then divides through = a custom short manifold to the rotors. On set of injectors in the TB, the o= ther stock injectors in the side housings. I run the injectors in the TB as= 'primary' because they give me smoother low end operation.

 

George =E2=80=93 I don't r= ecall don't any detailed analysis in choosing the TB diameter.  I did = look at the air velocity, and discussed with Paul Yaw and David Akins; and made a 'best guess' for good breathing= , and good throttle response coming off low end.

 

A lot of discussion is mad= e of tuned induction and exhaust, however; my primary consideration was sim= plicity and compact installation for both. The system gives me easy start b= oth hot and cold; and dyno tests show very flat torque response from about = 2500 rpm all the way to 7000, with the corresponding nearly linear rise in = HP to 300 hp at 7000 rpm. Just started to see signs of a break in the power= curve at 7000 =E2=80=93 which is as far up as we tested. This engine has t= he 9.0 : 1 compression turbo rotors.

 

It is likely that longer r= unners, higher compression rotors, tuned exhaust could get some more horses= , but I have all I need for the application.  If you look at re= inforcement of intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, i= t turns out that the 12-13" that I have from port to air box is a good dist= ance at 5500 to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the air box to direct = these pulses, so whether I get any help from that is open to debate.=

 

So that's about all I know= .  I'm happy it worked well on the first try.  Good luck on your = Renesis.

 

BTW; the intake manifold i= s 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 lbs. It was a serious challenge to = fabricate.  Fortunately, on the third try, I found a very skilled mach= inist/welder who got it port-matched at both flanges, and got the thing wel= ded up.  I then took it to a heat treatment shop, and had it heat-trea= ted back to T-6 condition.

 

Al G

 

 



--- On Sat, 2/7/09, Al Gietzen <ALVen= tures@cox.net> wrote:

From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
= Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM

Bryan;

I use a 3-barrel TWM TB on my = 20B with 44mm barrels.  One barrel (which divides into the 2 runners) = for each rotor. It seem to work quite well.  As Ed mentioned, and supp= orted by Paul Yaw= =CA=BCs work, high = velocity in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could cut the thing in ha= lf and use 2 barrels? I use the injector port in the TB for MSD (Rochester) injectors, and use the stock primary in the housings.

Al

 

-----Original Message-----=
From: Rotary motors in= aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 <= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma">5:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircr= aft
Subject: [FlyRotary= ] renesis intake possibility

 

Hello all,

I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch pic) at a = ;very low price.  I have a couple questions for the group.=

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.).  Is this too big to the p= oint that they would be incompatible with the injectors?  I plan on us= ing 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners.

 

Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors= .  Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis injector= s?

 

This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox  t= hus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing standpoint.

 

Thanks in advance,

Bryan

RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear)

 

=  

=  

--
Homepage:  http://w=
ww.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/f=
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