X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web180001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.8.65] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with SMTP id 3482648 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 11:37:44 -0500 Received: (qmail 91547 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Feb 2009 16:37:42 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=bellsouth.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=4MSkOuMXeXKIQIXn8xEBLlqI/zUZaYaRNzggREr1BG4gdI0ywG73AXfLl2vAmtZ/7V75nzEhFwXy0vGoZvom2jG2rHNnZdozmS89/f+dWV886p9hLiQ7QctGHqZgCVMZo2rgCLxj2zsqnF8WtyVjz/LMLarotP0jIh0+pS/lcCI=; X-YMail-OSG: 0H3JN2sVM1lcZROH8gyXbzalVkQOMBQEVUUa1hhuY51_7PYWMcCb8bvvx6tV3MTLqiHjLhaZUeFWMprj8ZJ8_QqKe4VTsDJVBipNrb9HtNL2gkC.N4MuHHVFoZXl0veEGP6HI7NmJvwA7QBzNDXvf3WuGpTYVRz6wltsdtVMO0iZ0piqtOX9jPhidmcnTGP1XRwI Received: from [68.158.224.100] by web180001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 08 Feb 2009 08:37:42 PST X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.7.260.1 Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 08:37:42 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Winberry Reply-To: bryanwinberry@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility To: Rotary motors in aircraft In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1812748002-1234111062=:90360" Message-ID: <827570.90360.qm@web180001.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> --0-1812748002-1234111062=:90360 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, Thanks for the info.=C2=A0 I really appreciate you and all the others that = took the time to weigh in. This a great forum! =C2=A0 Looks like this TB might be too much with all 4 (maybe not), but if necessa= ry, could be halved and most likely be sufficient. =C2=A0 Bryan =C2=A0 --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Al Gietzen wrote: From: Al Gietzen Subject: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:20 AM =C2=A0 Al, How is your set up different than the one Ed A. had that didn't work too we= ll?=C2=A0 It was also one throttle split into two runners. Bryan =C2=A0 I can=E2=80=99t really answer that question as I don=E2=80=99t know the det= ails of Ed=E2=80=99s design, and there may be differences that neither of u= s understands.=20 =C2=A0 My induction system is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop feeds (thro= ugh a screen filter) an air box =C2=A0that I made from fiberglass. It provi= des smooth transition (in lieu of air horns) to the TB which has 44 mm barr= els. Then divides through a custom short manifold to the rotors. On set of = injectors in the TB, the other stock injectors in the side housings. I run = the injectors in the TB as =E2=80=98primary=E2=80=99 because they give me s= moother low end operation. =C2=A0 George =E2=80=93 I don=E2=80=99t recall don=E2=80=99t any detailed analysis= in choosing the TB diameter.=C2=A0 I did look at the air velocity, and dis= cussed with Paul Yaw and David Akins; and made a =E2=80=98best guess=E2=80= =99 for good breathing, and good throttle response coming off low end. =C2=A0 A lot of discussion is made of tuned induction and exhaust, however; my pri= mary consideration was simplicity and compact installation for both. The sy= stem gives me easy start both hot and cold; and dyno tests show very flat t= orque response from about 2500 rpm all the way to 7000, with the correspond= ing nearly linear rise in HP to 300 hp at 7000 rpm. Just started to see sig= ns of a break in the power curve at 7000 =E2=80=93 which is as far up as we= tested. This engine has the 9.0 : 1 compression turbo rotors. =C2=A0 It is likely that longer runners, higher compression rotors, tuned exhaust = could get some more horses, but I have all I need for the application.=C2= =A0 If you look at reinforcement of intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, it turns o= ut that the 12-13=E2=80=9D that I have from port to air box is a good dista= nce at 5500 to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the air box to direct t= hese pulses, so whether I get any help from that is open to debate. =C2=A0 So that=E2=80=99s about all I know.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m happy it worked well = on the first try.=C2=A0 Good luck on your Renesis. =C2=A0 BTW; the intake manifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 lbs. It w= as a serious challenge to fabricate.=C2=A0 Fortunately, on the third try, I= found a very skilled machinist/welder who got it port-matched at both flan= ges, and got the thing welded up.=C2=A0 I then took it to a heat treatment = shop, and had it heat-treated back to T-6 condition. =C2=A0 Al G=20 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --- On Sat, 2/7/09, Al Gietzen wrote: From: Al Gietzen Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Date: Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM Bryan; I use a 3-barrel TWM TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels.=C2=A0 One barrel (whic= h divides into the 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to work quite well.= =C2=A0 As Ed mentioned, and supported by Paul Yaw=CA=BCs work, high velocit= y in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could cut the thing in half and = use 2 barrels? I use the injector port in the TB for MSD (Rochester) inject= ors, and use the stock primary in the housings. Al =C2=A0 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 5:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility =C2=A0 Hello all, I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch pic) at a=C2=A0ve= ry low price.=C2=A0=C2=A0I have a couple questions for the group. =C2=A0 The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.).=C2=A0 Is=C2=A0this too big to the poin= t that they would be incompatible with the injectors?=C2=A0 I plan on using= 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners. =C2=A0 Also, the bosses are=C2=A0sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors.= =C2=A0 Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis injectors= ? =C2=A0 This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox=C2=A0=C2=A0thus= simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing standpoint. =C2=A0 Thanks in advance, Bryan RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3=C2=A0(in the pipeline I hear) =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html --0-1812748002-1234111062=:90360 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,
Thanks for the info.  I really appreciate you and all the others = that took the time to weigh in.
This a great forum!
 
Looks like this TB might be too much with all 4 (maybe not), but if ne= cessary, could be halved and most likely be sufficient.
 
Bryan
 

--- On Sun, 2/8/09, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:
From: Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>
Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Induction System; was: renesis intake possibility
To: "Ro= tary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date: Sunda= y, February 8, 2009, 10:20 AM

 

Al,

How is your set up different than the one Ed A. had that = didn't work too well?  It was also

one throttle split into two runners.

<= /DIV>

Bryan

 

I can=E2=80=99t rea= lly answer that question as I don=E2=80=99t know the details of Ed=E2=80=99= s design, and there may be differences that neither of us understands.

 

My induction system= is shown in the attached photo. A ram scoop feeds (through a screen filter= ) an air box  that I made from fiberglass. It provides smooth transiti= on (in lieu of air horns) to the TB which has 44 mm barrels. Then divides t= hrough a custom short manifold to the rotors. On set of injectors in the TB= , the other stock injectors in the side housings. I run the injectors in th= e TB as =E2=80=98primary=E2=80=99 because they give me smoother low end ope= ration.

 

George =E2=80=93 I = don=E2=80=99t recall don=E2=80=99t any detailed analysis in choosing the TB= diameter.  I did look at the air velocity, and discussed with = Paul Yaw and David Akins; and made a =E2=80=98best guess= =E2=80=99 for good breathing, and good throttle response coming off low end= .

 

A lot of discussion= is made of tuned induction and exhaust, however; my primary consideration = was simplicity and compact installation for both. The system gives me easy = start both hot and cold; and dyno tests show very flat torque response from= about 2500 rpm all the way to 7000, with the corresponding nearly linear r= ise in HP to 300 hp at 7000 rpm. Just started to see signs of a break in th= e power curve at 7000 =E2=80=93 which is as far up as we tested. This engin= e has the 9.0 : 1 compression turbo rotors.

 

It is likely that l= onger runners, higher compression rotors, tuned exhaust could get some more= horses, but I have all I need for the application.  If you look at re= inforcement of intakes pulses on a 3-rotor, it turns= out that the 12-13=E2=80=9D that I have from port to air box is a good dis= tance at 5500 to 6000 rpm. I made no effort to design the air box to direct= these pulses, so whether I get any help from that is open to debate.

 

So that=E2=80=99s a= bout all I know.  I=E2=80=99m happy it worked well on the first try.&n= bsp; Good luck on your Renesis.

 

BTW; the intake man= ifold is 6061-T6 aluminum, weighs only about 2 lbs. It was a serious challe= nge to fabricate.  Fortunately, on the third try, I found a very skill= ed machinist/welder who got it port-matched at both flanges, and got the th= ing welded up.  I then took it to a heat treatment shop, and had it he= at-treated back to T-6 condition.

 

Al G =

 

 



--- On Sat, = 2/7/09= , Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:

From: Al Gietzen <ALVent= ures@cox.net>
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility
= To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Date= : Saturday, February 7, 2009, 3:04 PM

Bryan= ;

I use a 3-barrel TW= M TB on my 20B with 44mm barrels.  One barrel (which divides into the = 2 runners) for each rotor. It seem to work quite well.  As Ed mentione= d, and supported by Paul Yaws work, high veloc= ity in the barrel is a good thing. Maybe you could cut the thing in half an= d use 2 barrels? I use the injector port in the TB for MSD (<= FONT face=3DVerdana color=3Dblue size=3D2>Rochester) injectors, and use the stock primary in the housings.

Al

 

-----Original Mes= sage-----
From: Rotary m= otors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Saturday, Febr= uary 07, 2009 5:57 AM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility

 

 

Hello all,

I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch= pic) at a very low price.  I have a couple questions for th= e group.

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.).  Is this t= oo big to the point that they would be incompatible with the injectors?&nbs= p; I plan on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners.

 

Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or = Lucas injectors.  Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock R= enesis injectors?

 

This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airb= ox  thus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing stand= point.

 

Thanks in advance,

Bryan

RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear)<= /SPAN>

 

 

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