X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail02.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.183] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTPS id 3481961 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:33:19 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.183; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (d220-236-255-172.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.255.172]) by mail02.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n17MWXac027431 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:32:34 +1100 Message-ID: From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 08:32:35 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C989C7.CAEAC310" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0617-3, 04/28/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C989C7.CAEAC310 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed,=20 What is the stock primary inlets good for in rpm is it 4,500? If that's the case your primaries at 1 1/4" ( 32mm) would be good to = 5,500rpm, maybe!?=20 However can't remember the size of the stock inlet, it may well be 32mm. George (down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:21 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility Ed, Was that a twin throat of 75mm each or one 75mm. The RX8 uses a nice = TB of 75mm or 3", however that's for all runners. I think 75mm is good if your primary runners are small. George (down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility Mike, it was stock. Someone on Ebay was sticking in an after-market = TB and had listed it. I bid $25 and got it. It looked like new and all = I did was take off the TBS potentiometer and reversed the spring so that = if the cable failed it would got to full throttle rather than close like = it would on the automobile. =20 I later tried using a 75MM TB but found it did nothing for = performance and produced a "bog" if you suddenly opened the throttle, so = I went back to the 65mm unit. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:49 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility =20 Ed, =20 Is that Mustang TB stock wrecking yard issue or is it aftermarket? = Been thinking about intake mods. My current system works but is not = compatible with use of an air filter. And there is a lot of JB Weld in = my manifold to blend the ports. I have nightmares about ingesting JB = Weld. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:33 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility =20 Hi Bryan, =20 Welcome. Here is my experience using a TWM throttle body (a = different model than you are looking at). Back in 1992 there was no one = around that I was aware that could provide any answers to what made a = good induction configuration for a flying rotary. So I turned to the = only "rotary aware" crowd around and that was those racing with rotary = engines. =20 So after discussing my needs, I purchase a TWM throttle body with = 4 injector positions. It was a two throat (Webber style) design with = each throat 2" in diameter. Two injectors per port (I used MSD 32 lb/hr = injectors that fit the injector holes) for a total of 4 injectors on the = TB. The TWM throttle body was then bolted to a cast aluminum "Webber" = style rotary intake manifold which then took the two TB channels and = divided them into 4 (two primary and two secondary) distribution = runners. =20 I estimate that the best HP I ever made with that set up was = around 130-140HP. My static rpm was 4800 swinging a 68x72 two bladed = wooden prop using the 2.17:1 gear ratio. =20 I later replaced that arrangement with 4 tubes of smaller diameter = (1 =BC" for primary and 1 =BD" for secondary), made the runners longer = in length and install the stock Mazda 3 port TB which had considerably = smaller openings than the TWM arrangement. =20 I immediately picked up over 300 fpm increase in my ROC and top = speed moved from 186 MPH TAS to 195 MPH TAS. =20 As I learned over the years, it became apparent that what works = great for the racers turning 9000 + rpm may well suck (but may not suck = very well - pun intended) at 5000-6000 and was therefore of = questionable use for aircraft. As best I could figure out the problem, = it appears that with the large runner openings and runners that the = mixture velocity in the runners was very much lower than optimum. That = meant the air mass had little momentum and did a poor job of filling the = combustion chambers during the short time they were open. By going to = smaller runners, the mixture velocity increased considerably and = resulted in more mixture in the combustion chamber and more power. Now = if I could of somehow (using a shifting gear box?) have gotten my rpm = range up into the 8000 + range, then that intake system might have been = the cat's meow - but, of course, I could never get above 4800 rpm static = (and about 5400 once airborne) =20 Now the TWM Throttle body in the photo based on your description = may not have the same problems as it does have a considerably smaller = throat than the one I used. I personally do not believe the use of the = four throats would give you what you are looking for - however, the use = of two of the throats (one module) might work. You could always place = your second injectors else where on the secondary part of the intake. =20 =20 Just my opinion, of course, if the price is really good, you have = little to lose if it doesn't work out. =20 I now use a $25 65 mm dia Mustang throttle body which is much = lighter (and much, much cheaper) than the TWM model I purchased back = over 15 years ago. =20 Good luck on your project =20 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility =20 Hello all, I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch = pic) at a very low price. I have a couple questions for the group. =20 The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.). Is this too big to the = point that they would be incompatible with the injectors? I plan on = using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners. =20 Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas = injectors. Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis = injectors? =20 This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox = thus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing standpoint. =20 Thanks in advance, Bryan RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear) =20 =20 =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C989C7.CAEAC310 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
What is the stock primary inlets good = for in rpm is=20 it 4,500?
If that's the case your primaries at 1 = 1/4" ( 32mm)=20 would be good to 5,500rpm, maybe!?
However can't remember the size of = the stock=20 inlet, it may well be 32mm.
George (down under)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George=20 Lendich
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 = 8:21=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = renesis intake=20 possibility

Ed,
Was that a twin throat of 75mm each = or one 75mm.=20 The RX8 uses a nice TB of 75mm or 3", however that's for all=20 runners.
I think 75mm is good if your primary = runners are=20 small.
George (down under)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Sunday, February 08, = 2009 8:01=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = renesis intake=20 possibility

Mike, it = was=20 stock.  Someone on Ebay was sticking in an after-market TB and = had=20 listed it. I bid $25 and got it.  It looked like new and all I = did was=20 take off the TBS potentiometer and reversed the spring so that if = the cable=20 failed it would got to full throttle rather than close like it would = on the=20 automobile.

 

I later = tried using=20 a 75MM TB but found it did nothing for performance and produced a = =93bog=94 if=20 you suddenly opened the throttle, so I went back to the 65mm=20 unit.

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Saturday, February 07, = 2009 11:49=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = renesis intake=20 possibility

 

Ed,

 

 Is that Mustang = TB stock=20 wrecking yard issue or is it aftermarket? Been thinking about intake = mods.=20 My current system works but is not compatible with use of an = air=20 filter. And there is a lot of JB Weld in my manifold to blend the = ports. I=20 have nightmares about ingesting JB = Weld.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW

----- Original = Message -----=20

From: Ed=20 Anderson

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:33 = AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake=20 possibility

 

Hi=20 Bryan,

 

Welcome. =20 Here is my experience using a TWM throttle body (a different model = than=20 you are looking at).  Back in 1992 there was no one around = that I was=20 aware that could provide any answers to what made a good induction = configuration for a flying rotary.  So I turned to the only = =93rotary=20 aware=94 crowd around and that was those racing with rotary=20 engines.

 

So = after=20 discussing my needs, I purchase a TWM throttle body with 4 = injector=20 positions.  It was a two throat (Webber style) design with = each=20 throat 2=94 in diameter.  Two injectors per port (I used MSD = 32 lb/hr=20 injectors that fit the injector holes) for a total of 4 injectors = on the=20 TB.  The TWM throttle body was then bolted to a cast aluminum =  =93Webber=94 style rotary intake manifold which then took = the two TB=20 channels and divided them into 4 (two primary and two secondary)=20 distribution runners.

 

I = estimate that=20 the best HP I ever made with that set up was around = 130-140HP.  My=20 static rpm was 4800 swinging a 68x72 two bladed wooden prop using = the=20 2.17:1 gear ratio.

 

I later = replaced=20 that arrangement with 4 tubes of smaller diameter (1 =BC=94 for = primary and 1=20 =BD=94 for secondary), made the runners longer in length and = install the stock=20 Mazda 3 port TB which had considerably smaller openings than the = TWM=20 arrangement.

 

I = immediately=20 picked up over 300 fpm increase in my ROC and top speed moved from = 186 MPH=20 TAS to 195 MPH TAS.

 

As I = learned over=20 the years, it became apparent that what works great for the racers = turning=20 9000 + rpm may well suck (but may not suck very well =96 pun = intended)=20  at 5000-6000 and was therefore of questionable use for=20 aircraft.  As best I could figure out the problem, it appears = that=20 with the large runner openings and runners that the mixture = velocity in=20 the runners was very much lower than optimum.  That meant the = air=20 mass had little momentum and did a poor job of filling the = combustion=20 chambers during the short time they were open.  By going to = smaller=20 runners, the mixture velocity increased considerably and resulted = in more=20 mixture in the combustion chamber and more power.   Now = if I=20 could of somehow (using a shifting gear box?) have gotten my rpm = range up=20 into the 8000 + range, then that intake system might have been the = cat=92s=20 meow =96 but, of course, I could never get above 4800 rpm static = (and about=20 5400 once airborne)

 

Now the = TWM=20 Throttle body in the photo based on your description may not have = the same=20 problems as it does have a considerably smaller throat than the = one I=20 used.  I personally do not believe the use of the four = throats would=20 give you what you are looking for =96 however, the use of two of = the throats=20 (one module) might work.  You could always place your second=20 injectors else where on the secondary part of the intake. =20

 

Just my = opinion,=20 of course, if the price is really good, you have little to lose if = it=20 doesn=92t work out.

 

I now = use a $25=20 65 mm dia Mustang throttle body which is much lighter (and much, = much=20 cheaper) than the TWM model I purchased back over 15 years=20 ago.

 

Good = luck on your=20 project

 

Ed

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW=20 Rotary Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Saturday, February = 07, 2009=20 8:57 AM
To:=20 Rotary motors in=20 aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = renesis intake=20 possibility

 

Hello=20 all,

I have a chance to purchase a TWM = throttle=20 body(see attch pic) at a very low price.  I = have a=20 couple questions for the = group.

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 = in.). =20 Is this too big to the point that they would be = incompatible=20 with the injectors?  I plan on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in=20 runners.

 

Also, the bosses are sized = for Bosch,=20 Rochestor, or Lucas injectors.  Does this necessarily = eliminate=20 my using the stock Renesis=20 injectors?

 

This setup also would allow the = use of a=20 lightweight airbox  thus simplifying the intake = system=20 from a manufacturing = standpoint.

 

Thanks in=20 advance,

Bryan

RV7, = Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the=20 pipeline I hear)

 

=

 



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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