X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.187] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTPS id 3481943 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:22:40 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.187; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from ownerf1fc517b8 (d220-236-255-172.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [220.236.255.172]) by mail06.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n17MLpMA000799 for ; Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:21:52 +1100 Message-ID: <083DACF7A8684918BDDD6AD9124E29D0@ownerf1fc517b8> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 08:21:53 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0011_01C989C6.4C225C60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0617-3, 04/28/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C989C6.4C225C60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, Was that a twin throat of 75mm each or one 75mm. The RX8 uses a nice TB = of 75mm or 3", however that's for all runners. I think 75mm is good if your primary runners are small. George (down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 8:01 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility Mike, it was stock. Someone on Ebay was sticking in an after-market = TB and had listed it. I bid $25 and got it. It looked like new and all = I did was take off the TBS potentiometer and reversed the spring so that = if the cable failed it would got to full throttle rather than close like = it would on the automobile. =20 I later tried using a 75MM TB but found it did nothing for performance = and produced a "bog" if you suddenly opened the throttle, so I went back = to the 65mm unit. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:49 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility =20 Ed, =20 Is that Mustang TB stock wrecking yard issue or is it aftermarket? = Been thinking about intake mods. My current system works but is not = compatible with use of an air filter. And there is a lot of JB Weld in = my manifold to blend the ports. I have nightmares about ingesting JB = Weld. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:33 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility =20 Hi Bryan, =20 Welcome. Here is my experience using a TWM throttle body (a = different model than you are looking at). Back in 1992 there was no one = around that I was aware that could provide any answers to what made a = good induction configuration for a flying rotary. So I turned to the = only "rotary aware" crowd around and that was those racing with rotary = engines. =20 So after discussing my needs, I purchase a TWM throttle body with 4 = injector positions. It was a two throat (Webber style) design with each = throat 2" in diameter. Two injectors per port (I used MSD 32 lb/hr = injectors that fit the injector holes) for a total of 4 injectors on the = TB. The TWM throttle body was then bolted to a cast aluminum "Webber" = style rotary intake manifold which then took the two TB channels and = divided them into 4 (two primary and two secondary) distribution = runners. =20 I estimate that the best HP I ever made with that set up was around = 130-140HP. My static rpm was 4800 swinging a 68x72 two bladed wooden = prop using the 2.17:1 gear ratio. =20 I later replaced that arrangement with 4 tubes of smaller diameter = (1 =BC" for primary and 1 =BD" for secondary), made the runners longer = in length and install the stock Mazda 3 port TB which had considerably = smaller openings than the TWM arrangement. =20 I immediately picked up over 300 fpm increase in my ROC and top = speed moved from 186 MPH TAS to 195 MPH TAS. =20 As I learned over the years, it became apparent that what works = great for the racers turning 9000 + rpm may well suck (but may not suck = very well - pun intended) at 5000-6000 and was therefore of = questionable use for aircraft. As best I could figure out the problem, = it appears that with the large runner openings and runners that the = mixture velocity in the runners was very much lower than optimum. That = meant the air mass had little momentum and did a poor job of filling the = combustion chambers during the short time they were open. By going to = smaller runners, the mixture velocity increased considerably and = resulted in more mixture in the combustion chamber and more power. Now = if I could of somehow (using a shifting gear box?) have gotten my rpm = range up into the 8000 + range, then that intake system might have been = the cat's meow - but, of course, I could never get above 4800 rpm static = (and about 5400 once airborne) =20 Now the TWM Throttle body in the photo based on your description may = not have the same problems as it does have a considerably smaller throat = than the one I used. I personally do not believe the use of the four = throats would give you what you are looking for - however, the use of = two of the throats (one module) might work. You could always place your = second injectors else where on the secondary part of the intake. =20 =20 Just my opinion, of course, if the price is really good, you have = little to lose if it doesn't work out. =20 I now use a $25 65 mm dia Mustang throttle body which is much = lighter (and much, much cheaper) than the TWM model I purchased back = over 15 years ago. =20 Good luck on your project =20 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility =20 Hello all, I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch pic) = at a very low price. I have a couple questions for the group. =20 The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.). Is this too big to the = point that they would be incompatible with the injectors? I plan on = using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in runners. =20 Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas = injectors. Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis = injectors? =20 This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox = thus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing standpoint. =20 Thanks in advance, Bryan RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear) =20 =20 =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C989C6.4C225C60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ed,
Was that a twin throat of 75mm each or = one 75mm.=20 The RX8 uses a nice TB of 75mm or 3", however that's for all=20 runners.
I think 75mm is good if your primary = runners are=20 small.
George (down under)
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2009 = 8:01=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = renesis intake=20 possibility

Mike, it = was=20 stock.  Someone on Ebay was sticking in an after-market TB and = had listed=20 it. I bid $25 and got it.  It looked like new and all I did was = take off=20 the TBS potentiometer and reversed the spring so that if the cable = failed it=20 would got to full throttle rather than close like it would on the=20 automobile.

 

I later = tried using a=20 75MM TB but found it did nothing for performance and produced a = =93bog=94 if you=20 suddenly opened the throttle, so I went back to the 65mm=20 unit.

 

Ed

 

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews,=20 NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Saturday, February 07, = 2009 11:49=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = renesis intake=20 possibility

 

Ed,

 

 Is that Mustang TB = stock=20 wrecking yard issue or is it aftermarket? Been thinking about intake = mods. My=20 current system works but is not compatible with use of an air = filter. And=20 there is a lot of JB Weld in my manifold to blend the ports. I have = nightmares=20 about ingesting JB Weld.

 

Mike=20 Wills

RV-4=20 N144MW

----- Original Message = -----=20

From: Ed=20 Anderson

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent:=20 Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:33 = AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake=20 possibility

 

Hi=20 Bryan,

 

Welcome.  Here=20 is my experience using a TWM throttle body (a different model than = you are=20 looking at).  Back in 1992 there was no one around that I was = aware=20 that could provide any answers to what made a good induction = configuration=20 for a flying rotary.  So I turned to the only =93rotary = aware=94 crowd=20 around and that was those racing with rotary=20 engines.

 

So after = discussing=20 my needs, I purchase a TWM throttle body with 4 injector = positions.  It=20 was a two throat (Webber style) design with each throat 2=94 in=20 diameter.  Two injectors per port (I used MSD 32 lb/hr = injectors that=20 fit the injector holes) for a total of 4 injectors on the TB.  = The TWM=20 throttle body was then bolted to a cast aluminum  =93Webber=94 = style rotary=20 intake manifold which then took the two TB channels and divided them = into 4=20 (two primary and two secondary) distribution=20 runners.

 

I = estimate that the=20 best HP I ever made with that set up was around 130-140HP.  My = static=20 rpm was 4800 swinging a 68x72 two bladed wooden prop using the = 2.17:1 gear=20 ratio.

 

I later = replaced=20 that arrangement with 4 tubes of smaller diameter (1 =BC=94 for = primary and 1 =BD=94=20 for secondary), made the runners longer in length and install the = stock=20 Mazda 3 port TB which had considerably smaller openings than the TWM = arrangement.

 

I = immediately=20 picked up over 300 fpm increase in my ROC and top speed moved from = 186 MPH=20 TAS to 195 MPH TAS.

 

As I = learned over=20 the years, it became apparent that what works great for the racers = turning=20 9000 + rpm may well suck (but may not suck very well =96 pun = intended)=20  at 5000-6000 and was therefore of questionable use for = aircraft. =20 As best I could figure out the problem, it appears that with the = large=20 runner openings and runners that the mixture velocity in the runners = was=20 very much lower than optimum.  That meant the air mass had = little=20 momentum and did a poor job of filling the combustion chambers = during the=20 short time they were open.  By going to smaller runners, the = mixture=20 velocity increased considerably and resulted in more mixture in the=20 combustion chamber and more power.   Now if I could of = somehow=20 (using a shifting gear box?) have gotten my rpm range up into the = 8000 +=20 range, then that intake system might have been the cat=92s meow =96 = but, of=20 course, I could never get above 4800 rpm static (and about 5400 once = airborne)

 

Now the = TWM=20 Throttle body in the photo based on your description may not have = the same=20 problems as it does have a considerably smaller throat than the one = I=20 used.  I personally do not believe the use of the four throats = would=20 give you what you are looking for =96 however, the use of two of the = throats=20 (one module) might work.  You could always place your second = injectors=20 else where on the secondary part of the intake. =20

 

Just my = opinion, of=20 course, if the price is really good, you have little to lose if it = doesn=92t=20 work out.

 

I now use = a $25 65=20 mm dia Mustang throttle body which is much lighter (and much, much = cheaper)=20 than the TWM model I purchased back over 15 years=20 ago.

 

Good luck = on your=20 project

 

Ed

Ed=20 Anderson

Rv-6A = N494BW Rotary=20 Powered

Matthews, = NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

http://www.flyrotary.com/

http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Bryan Winberry
Sent: Saturday, February 07, = 2009 8:57=20 AM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis = intake=20 possibility

 

Hello = all,

I have a chance to purchase a TWM = throttle=20 body(see attch pic) at a very low price.  I = have a=20 couple questions for the = group.

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 = in.). =20 Is this too big to the point that they would be = incompatible with=20 the injectors?  I plan on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in=20 runners.

 

Also, the bosses are sized for = Bosch,=20 Rochestor, or Lucas injectors.  Does this necessarily = eliminate=20 my using the stock Renesis=20 injectors?

 

This setup also would allow the use = of a=20 lightweight airbox  thus simplifying the intake = system from=20 a manufacturing standpoint.

 

Thanks in=20 advance,

Bryan

RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in = the=20 pipeline I hear)

 

=

 



__________ Information from ESET = NOD32=20 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 3267 (20080714)=20 __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 = Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

------=_NextPart_000_0011_01C989C6.4C225C60--