X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3481931 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:02:16 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.122; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from computername ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090207220139.NGAN8858.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@computername> for ; Sat, 7 Feb 2009 22:01:39 +0000 From: "Ed Anderson" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 17:01:36 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C98945.BCC4C290" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: Thread-Index: AcmJRBIHU9DA3cVjTBC2uf94hn5iWgAE79EA X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 Message-Id: <20090207220139.NGAN8858.cdptpa-omta06.mail.rr.com@computername> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C98945.BCC4C290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, it was stock. Someone on Ebay was sticking in an after-market TB = and had listed it. I bid $25 and got it. It looked like new and all I did = was take off the TBS potentiometer and reversed the spring so that if the = cable failed it would got to full throttle rather than close like it would on = the automobile. =20 I later tried using a 75MM TB but found it did nothing for performance = and produced a =93bog=94 if you suddenly opened the throttle, so I went back = to the 65mm unit. =20 Ed =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 11:49 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility =20 Ed, =20 Is that Mustang TB stock wrecking yard issue or is it aftermarket? Been thinking about intake mods. My current system works but is not = compatible with use of an air filter. And there is a lot of JB Weld in my manifold = to blend the ports. I have nightmares about ingesting JB Weld. =20 Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:33 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility =20 Hi Bryan, =20 Welcome. Here is my experience using a TWM throttle body (a different = model than you are looking at). Back in 1992 there was no one around that I = was aware that could provide any answers to what made a good induction configuration for a flying rotary. So I turned to the only =93rotary = aware=94 crowd around and that was those racing with rotary engines. =20 So after discussing my needs, I purchase a TWM throttle body with 4 = injector positions. It was a two throat (Webber style) design with each throat = 2=94 in diameter. Two injectors per port (I used MSD 32 lb/hr injectors that = fit the injector holes) for a total of 4 injectors on the TB. The TWM = throttle body was then bolted to a cast aluminum =93Webber=94 style rotary = intake manifold which then took the two TB channels and divided them into 4 = (two primary and two secondary) distribution runners. =20 I estimate that the best HP I ever made with that set up was around 130-140HP. My static rpm was 4800 swinging a 68x72 two bladed wooden = prop using the 2.17:1 gear ratio. =20 I later replaced that arrangement with 4 tubes of smaller diameter (1 = =BC=94 for primary and 1 =BD=94 for secondary), made the runners longer in length = and install the stock Mazda 3 port TB which had considerably smaller = openings than the TWM arrangement. =20 I immediately picked up over 300 fpm increase in my ROC and top speed = moved from 186 MPH TAS to 195 MPH TAS. =20 As I learned over the years, it became apparent that what works great = for the racers turning 9000 + rpm may well suck (but may not suck very well = =96 pun intended) at 5000-6000 and was therefore of questionable use for aircraft. As best I could figure out the problem, it appears that with = the large runner openings and runners that the mixture velocity in the = runners was very much lower than optimum. That meant the air mass had little momentum and did a poor job of filling the combustion chambers during = the short time they were open. By going to smaller runners, the mixture velocity increased considerably and resulted in more mixture in the combustion chamber and more power. Now if I could of somehow (using a shifting gear box?) have gotten my rpm range up into the 8000 + range, = then that intake system might have been the cat=92s meow =96 but, of course, = I could never get above 4800 rpm static (and about 5400 once airborne) =20 Now the TWM Throttle body in the photo based on your description may not have the same problems as it does have a considerably smaller throat = than the one I used. I personally do not believe the use of the four throats would give you what you are looking for =96 however, the use of two of = the throats (one module) might work. You could always place your second injectors else where on the secondary part of the intake. =20 =20 Just my opinion, of course, if the price is really good, you have little = to lose if it doesn=92t work out. =20 I now use a $25 65 mm dia Mustang throttle body which is much lighter = (and much, much cheaper) than the TWM model I purchased back over 15 years = ago. =20 Good luck on your project =20 Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://www.andersonee.com http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html http://www.flyrotary.com/ http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW =20 _____ =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan Winberry Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 8:57 AM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] renesis intake possibility =20 Hello all, I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle body(see attch pic) at a very = low price. I have a couple questions for the group. =20 The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.). Is this too big to the point that = they would be incompatible with the injectors? I plan on using 1-1/8 = and1-1/4 in runners. =20 Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors. = Does this necessarily eliminate my using the stock Renesis injectors? =20 This setup also would allow the use of a lightweight airbox thus simplifying the intake system from a manufacturing standpoint. =20 Thanks in advance, Bryan RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the pipeline I hear) =20 =20 __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C98945.BCC4C290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mike, it was stock.=A0 Someone on = Ebay was sticking in an after-market TB and had listed it. I bid $25 and got = it.=A0 It looked like new and all I did was take off the TBS potentiometer and = reversed the spring so that if the cable failed it would got to full throttle = rather than close like it would on the automobile.

 

I later tried using a 75MM TB but = found it did nothing for performance and produced a “bog” if you = suddenly opened the throttle, so I went back to the 65mm = unit.

 

Ed

 

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mike Wills
Sent: Saturday, February = 07, 2009 11:49 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = renesis intake possibility

 

Ed,

 

 Is that Mustang TB stock wrecking yard issue or = is it aftermarket? Been thinking about intake mods. My current system works = but is not compatible with use of an air filter. And there is a lot of JB = Weld in my manifold to blend the ports. I have nightmares about ingesting JB = Weld.

 

Mike Wills

RV-4 N144MW

----- Original Message ----- =

From: Ed Anderson

Sent: = Saturday, February 07, 2009 7:33 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: renesis intake possibility

 

Hi = Bryan,

 

Welcome.  Here is my = experience using a TWM throttle body (a different model than you are looking at).  = Back in 1992 there was no one around that I was aware that could provide any = answers to what made a good induction configuration for a flying rotary.  So I = turned to the only “rotary aware” crowd around and that was those = racing with rotary engines.

 

So after discussing my needs, I = purchase a TWM throttle body with 4 injector positions.  It was a two throat = (Webber style) design with each throat 2” in diameter.  Two injectors = per port (I used MSD 32 lb/hr injectors that fit the injector holes) for a = total of 4 injectors on the TB.  The TWM throttle body was then bolted to a = cast aluminum  “Webber” style rotary intake manifold which = then took the two TB channels and divided them into 4 (two primary and two = secondary) distribution runners.

 

I estimate that the best HP I ever = made with that set up was around 130-140HP.  My static rpm was 4800 = swinging a 68x72 two bladed wooden prop using the 2.17:1 gear = ratio.

 

I later replaced that arrangement = with 4 tubes of smaller diameter (1 =BC” for primary and 1 =BD” for secondary), made the runners longer in length and install the stock = Mazda 3 port TB which had considerably smaller openings than the TWM = arrangement.

 

I immediately picked up over 300 = fpm increase in my ROC and top speed moved from 186 MPH TAS to 195 MPH = TAS.

 

As I learned over the years, it = became apparent that what works great for the racers turning 9000 + rpm may = well suck (but may not suck very well – pun intended)  at 5000-6000 and = was therefore of questionable use for aircraft.  As best I could figure = out the problem, it appears that with the large runner openings and runners = that the mixture velocity in the runners was very much lower than = optimum.  That meant the air mass had little momentum and did a poor job of = filling the combustion chambers during the short time they were open.  By going = to smaller runners, the mixture velocity increased considerably and = resulted in more mixture in the combustion chamber and more power.   Now = if I could of somehow (using a shifting gear box?) have gotten my rpm range = up into the 8000 + range, then that intake system might have been the = cat’s meow – but, of course, I could never get above 4800 rpm static (and = about 5400 once airborne)

 

Now the TWM Throttle body in the = photo based on your description may not have the same problems as it does have = a considerably smaller throat than the one I used.  I personally do = not believe the use of the four throats would give you what you are looking = for – however, the use of two of the throats (one module) might = work.  You could always place your second injectors else where on the secondary = part of the intake. 

 

Just my opinion, of course, if the = price is really good, you have little to lose if it doesn’t work = out.

 

I now use a $25 65 mm dia Mustang = throttle body which is much lighter (and much, much cheaper) than the TWM model I purchased back over 15 years ago.

 

Good luck on your = project

 

Ed

From: = Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Bryan = Winberry
Sent: Saturday, February = 07, 2009 8:57 AM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] = renesis intake possibility

 

Hello all,

I have a chance to purchase a TWM throttle = body(see attch pic) at a very low price.  I have a couple = questions for the group.

 

The inlets are 42mm (appx 1.65 in.).  Is this too big to the point that they would be incompatible with = the injectors?  I plan on using 1-1/8 and1-1/4 in = runners.

 

Also, the bosses are sized for Bosch, Rochestor, or Lucas injectors.  Does this necessarily eliminate = my using the stock Renesis injectors?

 

This setup also would allow the use of a = lightweight airbox  thus simplifying the intake system from a = manufacturing standpoint.

 

Thanks in = advance,

Bryan

RV7, Renesis,RD-1C,EC3,EM3 (in the = pipeline I hear)

 

 



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus = signature database 3267 (20080714) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

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