X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao101.cox.net ([68.230.241.45] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3479143 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:39:47 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.45; envelope-from=rv-4mike@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao101.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.08.02.01 201-2186-121-102-20070209) with ESMTP id <20090206033905.HDTJ2948.fed1rmmtao101.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:39:05 -0500 Received: from wills ([68.105.85.56]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id CTf21b00L1CvZmk04Tf4bu; Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:39:05 -0500 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=7g1VtSJxAAAA:8 a=Ia-xEzejAAAA:8 a=PFBpXWTjO7Mk8gOdsCIA:9 a=QU11Mu9Az0lvLo7bZa8A:7 a=6s73yP6pZ2u5kGiu_xX2z9_9dEkA:4 a=9M3DAB5Bs7sA:10 a=IplYkR0A5a8A:10 a=c95Y75WW8wkA:10 a=r6q2PTTcqAMA:10 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=9OHTkwyHC8cA:10 a=MP_20UxOAAAA:8 a=JcT1meiOAAAA:8 a=UXyi65YU8RWShDKoRvsA:9 a=vhvil4SgJp1lL0yJQF8A:7 a=oRISzYE7DI2c_Uw7sZhofj7dBTwA:4 a=djSSOgbfo6cA:10 a=4vB-4DCPJfMA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 X-CM-Score: 0.00 Message-ID: <005e01c9880c$74d8cc40$38556944@wills> From: "Mike Wills" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:39:03 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_005B_01C987C9.66589F30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C987C9.66589F30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dennis, Sounds like your -7A is pretty close to the performance of my old RV-6A = (160HP Lyc and fixed pitch metal Sensenich prop). My typical cruise = config with that airplane was 7500' and 21"MP where I would routinely = get about 170 - 175MPH and burn 7.8 - 8.0 GPH. Thats my benchmark for my = RV-4. If it can meet or exceed that performance I will consider it a = success. Mike Wills RV-4 N144MW ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Dennis Haverlah=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob, The main reason the Renesis is much quieter and easier on mufflers = IMHO appears to be because of the side exhaust ports on the sides of the = rotors split the exhaust into smaller packages. The exhaust manifold is = much lighter than the RX-7 manifold because it uses tubing for the = exhaust pipes with retaining some cast iron for the manifold flange. =20 Flew 170 miles yesterday and returned today - The Renesis ran great = and coming home today with 2 on board with luggage I was doing 170 MPH = TAS @ 7500' EM-2 showed about 20 mpg @ 22 inches manifold. This was = not full throttle! I'm now up to 140 hrs on the RV-7A with the Renesis = engine - stock from a wrecked car - RX-8 ignition coils, spark plugs, = exhaust manifold, part of the stock intake and Renesis fuel injectors. Rob wrote:=20 Thanks Bill for your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it = seems the Reneses manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as = well as stand up to the heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on = what I have read on this list so far.. What I'm most concerned about is = the noise. I currently fly a BD-4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly = trying to get the noise to some reasonable level. Would adapting the = Reneses be worth the trouble, in your opinion? Or how about adapting two = 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Robert Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Robert, The manifold could probably be lightened for non-turbo = applications. The problem is that if you remove material in the wrong = place the cast iron is likely to crack. Even if you want a non-tuned log = manifold you are going to be way ahead by making it from SS tubing and = plate. The only reason for the cast manifolds at all is the ability to = make them cheaply in production. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Rob To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Bill, Do you think the 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a = waste of time to even attempt it. Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob, I have a 20B and the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy = chunk of cast iron. I don't think it would be in danger of melting, but = is just too heavy. I do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would = be made to fit practically. The Renesis has side ports with a = rectangular profile. The 20B is a 13B with an extra rotor and one of the = spacings is longer due to the intermediate housing. The best method is = going to be a built up manifold, aand several are available over the = counter. Usually expensive, but much less hassle. Racing Beat made one = for using a single turbo for racing in the past. I don't know if it is = still available. Bill Jepson=20 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob,=20 The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shell, and a = heat shield on top of that. I'm not positive, but the inner shell could = possibly be made of inconel. The outer shell appears to be stainless = (probably 321).=20 Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have often wondered = if it could be modified to work on a 3-rotor. Keep in mind that the = port spacing on the Renesis is the same while the 20B unequally spaced. = That's due to the one larger side housing that contains the 3rd main = bearing. So, if the ports are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, = you would still have to add an extension between two of the ports to = make it line up. If that is all it requires to make it fit, it could be = worth a try. =20 Mark S. =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob wrote: I would be interested to know the weight. I didn't realize = that a cast exhaust manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It = sounds like the Renesis manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis = manifold stainless steel or what? Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Robert,=20 I have one that came with my 20B. I don't want to sound = negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on an a/c. First, it = is incredibly heavy because it is designed to incorporate the twin = turbos. And it is made of cast iron, so it would probably melt at = prolonged WOT operation. And the passages are very restrictive to = exhaust flow. I could weigh mine and send some pictures if you wish. = Sorry, but I don't want to get rid of it because I have plans for a = 3-rotor auto installation where it would be useable. Maybe you could = modify a Renesis manifold to fit. It would require some welding, but it = is probably more likely to work than the original 20B manifold.=20 The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail = material. I built my first manifold using that material and after 100 = hours it looks like it would last for a very long time. Ed Anderson has = been using this material on his a/c for a long time. My exhause flange = material was 1/2" mild carbon steel and it was holding up fine as it = doen'st see the high heat that the pipes do. The problem was with the = mufflers. They take a real beating. Try to space the muffler as far = away from the engine as possible. =20 Mark S. =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob wrote: Al and Greg, Thanks for your replys on this subject. I realize the = manifold would be too heavy but I was hoping I could widdle it down some = how. Greg, I would be interested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm = putting this 20B in a BD-4. Robert=20 Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Al, you don't want the stock exhaust. Get one built. = If you want to know one way it's done, let me know. Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Does anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold = that came with their engine that I could buy? No; but I do know the thing is massively heavy. I = looked at one when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very = interesting for an aircraft. Maybe if radically modified . . . Just my = opinion. Al G -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. ------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C987C9.66589F30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dennis,
 
 Sounds like your -7A is = pretty close=20 to the performance of my old RV-6A (160HP Lyc and fixed pitch metal = Sensenich prop). My typical cruise config with that airplane was = 7500' and=20 21"MP where I would routinely get about 170 - 175MPH and burn 7.8 - 8.0 = GPH.=20 Thats my benchmark for my RV-4. If it can meet or exceed that = performance I will=20 consider it a success.
 
Mike Wills
RV-4 N144MW
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Dennis Haverlah
Sent: Thursday, February 05, = 2009 3:21=20 PM
Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: 20B manifold

Rob,

The main reason the Renesis is much quieter = and=20 easier on mufflers IMHO appears to be because of the side exhaust = ports on the=20 sides of the rotors split the exhaust into smaller packages.  The = exhaust=20 manifold is much lighter than the RX-7 manifold because it uses tubing = for the=20 exhaust pipes with retaining some cast iron for the manifold=20 flange.  

Flew 170 miles yesterday and returned = today - The=20 Renesis ran great and coming home today with 2 on board with luggage I = was=20 doing 170 MPH TAS @ 7500'  EM-2 showed about 20 mpg @ 22 inches=20 manifold.   This was not full throttle!  I'm now up to = 140 hrs=20 on the RV-7A with the Renesis engine - stock from a wrecked car = - RX-8=20 ignition coils, spark plugs, exhaust manifold, part of the stock = intake and=20 Renesis fuel injectors.

Rob wrote:=20
Thanks Bill for your advise. I = guess I will=20 make my own, although it seems the Reneses manifold is quit well = constructed=20 to reduce noise as well as stand up to the heat in conjunction with = a=20 muffler, based on what I have read on this list so far.. What I'm = most=20 concerned about is the noise. I currently fly a BD-4 with a = Ford V-6=20 and I'm constantly trying to get the noise to some reasonable = level. =20 Would adapting the Reneses be worth the trouble, in your opinion? Or = how=20 about adapting two 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on this would be=20 appreciated.
Robert
 
Robert Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu
 
 
-----=20 Original Message ----- From:=20 wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 Sent:=20 Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:00 AM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Robert,
The manifold could probably be lightened = for=20 non-turbo applications. The problem is that if you remove material = in the=20 wrong place the cast iron is likely to crack. Even if you want a = non-tuned=20 log manifold you are going to be way ahead by making it from SS = tubing and=20 plate. The only reason for the cast manifolds at all is the = ability to=20 make them cheaply in production.
Bill = Jepson

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rob <rob@mum.edu>
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et>
Sent:=20 Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B = manifold

Bill,
Do you think the 20B manifold = could be=20 lightened or would it be a waste of time to even attempt = it.
 
Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA = 52557
(641)472-7000=20 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 Sent:=20 Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Rob,
I have a 20B and the manifold without the = turbos=20 is a very heavy chunk of cast iron. I don't think it would be in = danger=20 of melting, but is just too heavy. I do NOT believe the Renesis = Exhaust=20 manifold would be made to fit practically. The Renesis has side = ports=20 with a rectangular profile. The 20B is a 13B with an extra rotor = and one=20 of the spacings is longer due to the intermediate housing. The = best=20 method is going to be a built up manifold, aand several are = available=20 over the counter. Usually expensive, but much less hassle. = Racing Beat=20 made one for using a single turbo for racing in the past. I = don't know=20 if it is still available.
Bill = Jepson 


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B = manifold

Rob,
 
The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shell, = and a heat=20 shield on top of that.  I'm not positive, but the inner=20 shell could possibly be made of inconel.  The = outer shell=20 appears to be stainless (probably 321). 
 
Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have often = wondered if=20 it could be modified to work on a 3-rotor.  Keep in mind = that the=20 port spacing on the Renesis is the same while the 20B=20 unequally spaced.  That's due to the one larger side = housing=20 that contains the 3rd main bearing.  So, = if the=20 ports are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, you would = still have=20 to add an extension between two of the ports to = make it line=20 up.  If that is all it requires to make it fit, it could=20 be worth a try.  
 
Mark S.  

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob = <rob@mum.edu>=20 wrote:
I would be interested to know = the weight.=20 I didn't realize that a cast exhaust manifold made for a 20B = could=20 actually melt. It sounds like the Renesis manifold would be = better..=20 Is the Renesis manifold stainless steel or=20 what?
Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark=20 Steitle
To:=20 Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent:=20 Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:10 AM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Robert,
 
I have one that came with my 20B.  I don't want to = sound=20 negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on an = a/c. =20 First, it is incredibly heavy because it is designed to = incorporate=20 the twin turbos.  And it is made of cast iron, so it = would=20 probably melt at prolonged WOT operation.  And the = passages are very restrictive to = exhaust flow. =20 I could weigh mine and send some pictures if you wish.  = Sorry,=20 but I don't want to get rid of it because I have plans for a = 3-rotor=20 auto installation where it would be useable.  Maybe you = could=20 modify a Renesis manifold to fit.  It would require = some=20 welding, but it is probably more likely to work than the = original=20 20B manifold. 
 
The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail=20 material.  I built my first manifold using that = material and=20 after 100 hours it looks like it would last for a very long=20 time.  Ed Anderson has been using this material on his=20 a/c for a long time.  My exhause flange material = was 1/2"=20 mild carbon steel and it was holding up fine as it doen'st = see the=20 high heat that the pipes do.  The problem was with the=20 mufflers.  They take a real beating.  Try to space = the=20 muffler as far away from the engine as possible.  =
 
Mark S.
 


 
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob = <rob@mum.edu>=20 wrote:
Al and Greg,
Thanks for your replys on = this=20 subject. I realize the manifold would be too heavy but I = was=20 hoping I could widdle it down some how. Greg, I would be=20 interested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm putting = this 20B=20 in a BD-4.
Robert
 
Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Greg Ward =
To:=20 Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft Sent:=20 Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:10 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Al, you don't want the stock = exhaust.  Get one built.  If you want to know = one way=20 it's done, let me know.
Greg = Ward
Lancair 20B in=20 progress
-----=20 Original Message ----- From:=20 Al Gietzen = To:=20 Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft Sent:=20 Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:25 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

 
Does = anyone on=20 this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that came=20 with their engine that I could=20 buy?
 
No;=20 but I do know the thing is massively heavy.  I = looked at=20 one when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was = not very=20 interesting for an aircraft.  Maybe if radically = modified=20 . . . Just my opinion.
 
Al=20 = G



------=_NextPart_000_005B_01C987C9.66589F30--