X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from madison.lisco.com ([69.18.32.36] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3479052 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Feb 2009 21:34:11 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.18.32.36; envelope-from=rob@mum.edu Received: from DELL919SZF1 (76-76-233-100.lisco.net [76.76.233.100]) by madison.lisco.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 37BF92534C4 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:33:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <73E9059195F34BBA9AE4D8E3BE63FCFB@DELL919SZF1> Reply-To: "Rob" From: "Rob" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:33:29 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C987D1.01122210" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C987D1.01122210 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Of course I will have an extra 100 HP to play with. Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 3:16 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold Robert, yes I did have straight pipes, but I now have a 13B . you've = got the 20B (extra housing/rotor/iron, etc) . that's why you won't save = much weight. Jeff =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Rob Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold =20 You must have had streight pipes out the side of the cowl. Mine go = under the cabin. My BD-4 with the 20B should be about the same weight or = less as the Ford V-6. Robert =20 Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold =20 Hi Robert, I too used to have the Ford V6; loved the throaty sound = but not the weight. My conversion from the V6 to the 13B saved me 60lbs = . 44 lbs for the FWF and 16 lbs of ballast in the tail! Jeff =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Rob Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Thanks Bill for your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it = seems the Reneses manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as = well as stand up to the heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on = what I have read on this list so far.. What I'm most concerned about is = the noise. I currently fly a BD-4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly = trying to get the noise to some reasonable level. Would adapting the = Reneses be worth the trouble, in your opinion? Or how about adapting two = 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Robert =20 Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Robert, The manifold could probably be lightened for non-turbo = applications. The problem is that if you remove material in the wrong = place the cast iron is likely to crack. Even if you want a non-tuned log = manifold you are going to be way ahead by making it from SS tubing and = plate. The only reason for the cast manifolds at all is the ability to = make them cheaply in production. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Rob To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Bill, Do you think the 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a = waste of time to even attempt it. =20 Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Rob, I have a 20B and the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy = chunk of cast iron. I don't think it would be in danger of melting, but = is just too heavy. I do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would = be made to fit practically. The Renesis has side ports with a = rectangular profile. The 20B is a 13B with an extra rotor and one of the = spacings is longer due to the intermediate housing. The best method is = going to be a built up manifold, aand several are available over the = counter. Usually expensive, but much less hassle. Racing Beat made one = for using a single turbo for racing in the past. I don't know if it is = still available. Bill Jepson=20 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob,=20 =20 The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shell, and a = heat shield on top of that. I'm not positive, but the inner shell could = possibly be made of inconel. The outer shell appears to be stainless = (probably 321).=20 =20 Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have often wondered = if it could be modified to work on a 3-rotor. Keep in mind that the = port spacing on the Renesis is the same while the 20B unequally spaced. = That's due to the one larger side housing that contains the 3rd main = bearing. So, if the ports are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, = you would still have to add an extension between two of the ports to = make it line up. If that is all it requires to make it fit, it could be = worth a try. =20 =20 Mark S. =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob wrote: I would be interested to know the weight. I didn't realize that = a cast exhaust manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It sounds = like the Renesis manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis manifold = stainless steel or what? Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Robert,=20 =20 I have one that came with my 20B. I don't want to sound = negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on an a/c. First, it = is incredibly heavy because it is designed to incorporate the twin = turbos. And it is made of cast iron, so it would probably melt at = prolonged WOT operation. And the passages are very restrictive to = exhaust flow. I could weigh mine and send some pictures if you wish. = Sorry, but I don't want to get rid of it because I have plans for a = 3-rotor auto installation where it would be useable. Maybe you could = modify a Renesis manifold to fit. It would require some welding, but it = is probably more likely to work than the original 20B manifold.=20 =20 The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail material. = I built my first manifold using that material and after 100 hours it = looks like it would last for a very long time. Ed Anderson has been = using this material on his a/c for a long time. My exhause flange = material was 1/2" mild carbon steel and it was holding up fine as it = doen'st see the high heat that the pipes do. The problem was with the = mufflers. They take a real beating. Try to space the muffler as far = away from the engine as possible. =20 =20 Mark S. =20 =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob wrote: Al and Greg, Thanks for your replys on this subject. I realize the manifold = would be too heavy but I was hoping I could widdle it down some how. = Greg, I would be interested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm = putting this 20B in a BD-4. Robert=20 =20 Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Al, you don't want the stock exhaust. Get one built. If = you want to know one way it's done, let me know. Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 =20 Does anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that = came with their engine that I could buy? =20 No; but I do know the thing is massively heavy. I looked = at one when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very = interesting for an aircraft. Maybe if radically modified . . . Just my = opinion. =20 Al G =20 =20 --Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 =20 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C987D1.01122210 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Of course I will have an extra 100 HP = to play=20 with.
Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA = 52557
(641)472-7000=20 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeff=20 Whaley
Sent: Thursday, February 05, = 2009 3:16=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford = V6 ... was=20 20B manifold

Robert,=20 yes I did have straight pipes, but I now have a 13B =85 you=92ve got = the 20B=20 (extra housing/rotor/iron, etc) =85 that=92s why you won=92t save much = weight.

Jeff

 

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 Rob
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:07 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 = ... was=20 20B manifold

 

You must = have had=20 streight pipes out the side of the cowl. Mine go under the cabin. My = BD-4 with=20 the 20B should be about the same weight or less as the Ford=20 V-6.

Robert

 

Robert Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th = ST
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu

 

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: Jeff=20 Whaley

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: = Thursday,=20 February 05, 2009 1:14 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold

 

Hi=20 Robert, I too used to have the Ford V6; loved the throaty sound but = not the=20 weight. My conversion from the V6 to the 13B saved me 60lbs =85 44 = lbs for the=20 FWF and 16 lbs of ballast in the tail!

Jeff

 

From: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 Rob
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:59 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 manifold

 

Thanks = Bill for=20 your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it seems the = Reneses=20 manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as well as stand = up to the=20 heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on what I have read on = this list=20 so far.. What I'm most concerned about is the noise. I currently = fly a=20 BD-4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly trying to get the noise to = some=20 reasonable level.  Would adapting the Reneses be worth the = trouble, in=20 your opinion? Or how about adapting two 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts = on this=20 would be appreciated.

Robert

 

Robert=20 Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu

 

 

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: = Thursday,=20 February 05, 2009 11:00 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: 20B manifold

 

Robert,
The = manifold=20 could probably be lightened for non-turbo applications. The = problem is=20 that if you remove material in the wrong place the cast iron is = likely to=20 crack. Even if you want a non-tuned log manifold you are going to = be way=20 ahead by making it from SS tubing and plate. The only reason for = the cast=20 manifolds at all is the ability to make them cheaply in=20 production.
Bill Jepson

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rob=20 <rob@mum.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16=20 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Bill,

Do = you think=20 the 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a waste of time = to even=20 attempt it.

 

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA = 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

-----=20 Original Message -----

From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20

Sent: = Wednesday,=20 February 04, 2009 12:46 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: 20B manifold

 

Rob,
I = have a 20B and=20 the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy chunk of cast = iron. I=20 don't think it would be in danger of melting, but is just too = heavy. I=20 do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would be made to fit = practically. The Renesis has side ports with a rectangular = profile. The=20 20B is a 13B with an extra rotor and one of the spacings is = longer due=20 to the intermediate housing. The best method is going to be a = built up=20 manifold, aand several are available over the counter. Usually=20 expensive, but much less hassle. Racing Beat made one for using = a single=20 turbo for racing in the past. I don't know if it is still=20 available.
Bill Jepson 


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 manifold

Rob,

 

The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an = outer=20 shell, and a heat shield on top of that.  I'm not positive, = but the=20 inner shell could possibly be made of inconel.  = The outer=20 shell appears to be stainless (probably = 321). 

 

Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, = I have=20 often wondered if it could be modified to work on a = 3-rotor.  Keep=20 in mind that the port spacing on the Renesis is the = same while=20 the 20B unequally spaced.  That's due to the = one larger side=20 housing that contains the 3rd main bearing.  So,=20 if the ports are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, = you=20 would still have to add an extension between two of the = ports to=20 make it line up.  If that is all it requires to make = it fit,=20 it could be worth a try.  

 

Mark=20 S.  

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob <rob@mum.edu> = wrote:

I = would be=20 interested to know the weight. I didn't realize that a cast = exhaust=20 manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It sounds like the = Renesis=20 manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis = manifold stainless=20 steel or what?

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield = IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

-----=20 Original Message -----

From: = Mark=20 Steitle

To: = Rotary motors in=20 aircraft

Sent: = Wednesday,=20 February 04, 2009 8:10 AM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

 

Robert,

 

I have one that came with my 20B.  I = don't=20 want to sound negative, but I don't think it is realistic to = use on an=20 a/c.  First, it is incredibly heavy because it is = designed to=20 incorporate the twin turbos.  And it is made of cast = iron, so it=20 would probably melt at prolonged WOT operation.  And = the=20 passages are very restrictive to = exhaust flow.  I=20 could weigh mine and send some pictures if you wish.  = Sorry, but=20 I don't want to get rid of it because I have plans for a = 3-rotor auto=20 installation where it would be useable.  Maybe you could = modify a=20 Renesis manifold to fit.  It would require some welding, = but it=20 is probably more likely to work than the original 20B=20 manifold. 

 

The cheapest manifold would be to use = 304SS=20 handrail material.  I built my first manifold using that = material=20 and after 100 hours it looks like it would last for a very = long=20 time.  Ed Anderson has been using this material on his=20 a/c for a long time.  My exhause flange material was = 1/2"=20 mild carbon steel and it was holding up fine as it doen'st see = the=20 high heat that the pipes do.  The problem was with the=20 mufflers.  They take a real beating.  Try to space = the=20 muffler as far away from the engine as possible. =20

 

Mark S.

 



 

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob = <rob@mum.edu> = wrote:

Al and=20 Greg,

Thanks for=20 your replys on this subject. I realize the manifold would be = too heavy=20 but I was hoping I could widdle it down some how. Greg, I = would be=20 interested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm putting this = 20B in=20 a BD-4.

Robert=20

 

Robert Bollinger
MR722 = MUM
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

-----=20 Original Message -----

From: Greg Ward=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Sent: Tuesday,=20 February 03, 2009 11:10 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

 

Al, you=20 don't want the stock exhaust.  Get one built.  If = you want=20 to know one way it's done, let me=20 know.

Greg=20 Ward

Lancair 20B=20 in progress

-----=20 Original Message -----

From: Al=20 Gietzen

To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft

Sent:=20 Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:25 = PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

 

 

Does=20 anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that came=20 with their engine that I could=20 buy?

 

No;=20 but I do know the thing is massively heavy.  I looked = at one=20 when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very=20 interesting for an aircraft.  Maybe if radically = modified . .=20 . Just my opinion.

 

Al=20 = G

=

 

 

 

 

Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at = $499.=20

 

Great=20 Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20 =

= ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C987D1.01122210--