X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from EXHUB003-3.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.110] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTPS id 3478704 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:16:37 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.5.74.110; envelope-from=jwhaley@datacast.com Received: from EXVMBX003-5.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.45]) by EXHUB003-3.exch003intermedia.net ([207.5.74.110]) with mapi; Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:16:00 -0800 From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:16:00 -0800 Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold Thread-Topic: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold Thread-Index: AcmH1ig2EG/0XG6XRoiX5pBEc4nfogAAB6cA Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED13870F1D6EXVMBX0035exc_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED13870F1D6EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Robert, yes I did have straight pipes, but I now have a 13B ... you've got = the 20B (extra housing/rotor/iron, etc) ... that's why you won't save much = weight. Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Rob Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold You must have had streight pipes out the side of the cowl. Mine go under th= e cabin. My BD-4 with the 20B should be about the same weight or less as th= e Ford V-6. Robert Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Whaley To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold Hi Robert, I too used to have the Ford V6; loved the throaty sound but not = the weight. My conversion from the V6 to the 13B saved me 60lbs ... 44 lbs = for the FWF and 16 lbs of ballast in the tail! Jeff From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beh= alf Of Rob Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Thanks Bill for your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it seems = the Reneses manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as well as st= and up to the heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on what I have read= on this list so far.. What I'm most concerned about is the noise. I curren= tly fly a BD-4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly trying to get the noise t= o some reasonable level. Would adapting the Reneses be worth the trouble, = in your opinion? Or how about adapting two 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on = this would be appreciated. Robert Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: wrjjrs@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Robert, The manifold could probably be lightened for non-turbo applications. The pr= oblem is that if you remove material in the wrong place the cast iron is li= kely to crack. Even if you want a non-tuned log manifold you are going to b= e way ahead by making it from SS tubing and plate. The only reason for the = cast manifolds at all is the ability to make them cheaply in production. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Rob To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Bill, Do you think the 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a waste of = time to even attempt it. Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: wrjjrs@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob, I have a 20B and the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy chunk of c= ast iron. I don't think it would be in danger of melting, but is just too h= eavy. I do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would be made to fit pr= actically. The Renesis has side ports with a rectangular profile. The 20B i= s a 13B with an extra rotor and one of the spacings is longer due to the in= termediate housing. The best method is going to be a built up manifold, aan= d several are available over the counter. Usually expensive, but much less = hassle. Racing Beat made one for using a single turbo for racing in the pas= t. I don't know if it is still available. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob, The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shell, and a heat shield = on top of that. I'm not positive, but the inner shell could possibly be ma= de of inconel. The outer shell appears to be stainless (probably 321). Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have often wondered if it coul= d be modified to work on a 3-rotor. Keep in mind that the port spacing on = the Renesis is the same while the 20B unequally spaced. That's due to the = one larger side housing that contains the 3rd main bearing. So, if the por= ts are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, you would still have to ad= d an extension between two of the ports to make it line up. If that is all= it requires to make it fit, it could be worth a try. Mark S. On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob > wrot= e: I would be interested to know the weight. I didn't realize that a cast exha= ust manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It sounds like the Renesis= manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis manifold stainless steel or what= ? Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Robert, I have one that came with my 20B. I don't want to sound negative, but I do= n't think it is realistic to use on an a/c. First, it is incredibly heavy = because it is designed to incorporate the twin turbos. And it is made of c= ast iron, so it would probably melt at prolonged WOT operation. And the pa= ssages are very restrictive to exhaust flow. I could weigh mine and send s= ome pictures if you wish. Sorry, but I don't want to get rid of it because= I have plans for a 3-rotor auto installation where it would be useable. M= aybe you could modify a Renesis manifold to fit. It would require some wel= ding, but it is probably more likely to work than the original 20B manifold= . The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail material. I built my = first manifold using that material and after 100 hours it looks like it wou= ld last for a very long time. Ed Anderson has been using this material on = his a/c for a long time. My exhause flange material was 1/2" mild carbon s= teel and it was holding up fine as it doen'st see the high heat that the pi= pes do. The problem was with the mufflers. They take a real beating. Try= to space the muffler as far away from the engine as possible. Mark S. On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob > wrote= : Al and Greg, Thanks for your replys on this subject. I realize the manifold would be too= heavy but I was hoping I could widdle it down some how. Greg, I would be i= nterested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm putting this 20B in a BD-4= . Robert Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg Ward To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Al, you don't want the stock exhaust. Get one built. If you want to know = one way it's done, let me know. Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message ----- From: Al Gietzen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Does anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that came with their e= ngine that I could buy? No; but I do know the thing is massively heavy. I looked at one when I got= my engine, and decided quickly it was not very interesting for an aircraft= . Maybe if radically modified . . . Just my opinion. Al G -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.= html ________________________________ Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. ________________________________ Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. --_000_C03ABB0A7362B84BB53D544B3C305E0ED13870F1D6EXVMBX0035exc_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Robert, yes I did have straight pipes, but I now have a 13B = … you’ve got the 20B (extra housing/rotor/iron, etc) … that’= ;s why you won’t save much weight.

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Rob
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 4:07 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold

 

You must have had streight pipes out the side of the cowl. Mine go under the ca= bin. My BD-4 with the 20B should be about the same weight or less as the Ford V-= 6.

Robert

 

Robert Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST
Fairfield IA 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Jeff Whaley

Sent: Thursday, Febr= uary 05, 2009 1:14 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold

 

Hi Robert, I too used to have the Ford V6; loved the throaty sound but not the weight. My conversion from the V6 to the 13B saved me 60l= bs … 44 lbs for the FWF and 16 lbs of ballast in the tail!

Jeff

 

From: Rotary motors= in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Rob
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:59 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

 

Thanks Bill for your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it seems the Ren= eses manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as well as stand up to th= e heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on what I have read on this list = so far.. What I'm most concerned about is the noise. I currently fly a BD= -4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly trying to get the noise to some reasonab= le level.  Would adapting the Reneses be worth the trouble, in your opini= on? Or how about adapting two 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Robert

 

Robert Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST
Fairfield IA 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu

 

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, Febr= uary 05, 2009 11:00 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : 20B manifold

 

Robert,
The manifold could probably be lightened for non-turbo applications. The problem is that if you remove material in the wrong place the cast iron is likely to crack. Even if you want a non-tuned log manifold you are going to= be way ahead by making it from SS tubing and plate. The only reason for the ca= st manifolds at all is the ability to make them cheaply in production.
Bill Jepson

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob <rob@mum.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Bill,

Do you think the 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a waste of tim= e to even attempt it.

 

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, Feb= ruary 04, 2009 12:46 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : 20B manifold

 

Rob,
I have a 20B and the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy chunk of c= ast iron. I don't think it would be in danger of melting, but is just too heavy= . I do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would be made to fit practicall= y. The Renesis has side ports with a rectangular profile. The 20B is a 13B wit= h an extra rotor and one of the spacings is longer due to the intermediate housi= ng. The best method is going to be a built up manifold, aand several are availa= ble over the counter. Usually expensive, but much less hassle. Racing Beat made= one for using a single turbo for racing in the past. I don't know if it is stil= l available.
Bill Jepson 


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail= .com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Rob,

 

The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shel= l, and a heat shield on top of that.  I'm not positive, but the inner shell could possibly be made of inconel.  The outer shell appears to be stainless (probably 321). 

 

Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have ofte= n wondered if it could be modified to work on a 3-rotor.  Keep in mind t= hat the port spacing on the Renesis is the same while the 20B unequal= ly spaced.  That's due to the one larger side housing that contains = the 3rd main bearing.  So, if the ports are big enough, and= the bolt pattern matches, you would still have to add an extension between= two of the ports to make it line up.  If that is all it requires to m= ake it fit, it could be worth a try.  

 

Mark S.  

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob <rob@mum.edu> wrote:

I would be interested to know the weight. I didn't realize that a cast exhaus= t manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It sounds like the Renesis manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis manifold stainless stee= l or what?

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

Sent: Wednesday, Feb= ruary 04, 2009 8:10 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : 20B manifold

 

Robert,

 

I have one that came with my 20B.  I don't want t= o sound negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on an a/c.  First, it is incredibly heavy because it is designed to incorporate the twi= n turbos.  And it is made of cast iron, so it would probably melt at prolonged WOT operation.  And the passages are very restrictive to exhaust flow.  I could weigh mine and send so= me pictures if you wish.  Sorry, but I don't want to get rid of it becaus= e I have plans for a 3-rotor auto installation where it would be useable.  Maybe you could modify a Renesis manifold to fit.  It would require so= me welding, but it is probably more likely to work than the original 20B manif= old. 

 

The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail material.  I built my first manifold using that material and after 100 hours it looks like it would last for a very long time.  Ed Anderson h= as been using this material on his a/c for a long time.  My exhause flange material was 1/2" mild carbon steel and it was holding up fine = as it doen'st see the high heat that the pipes do.  The problem was with = the mufflers.  They take a real beating.  Try to space the muffler as= far away from the engine as possible. 

 

Mark S.

 



 

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob <rob@mum.edu> wrote:

Al and Greg,

Thanks for your replys on this subject. I realize the manifold would be too heavy = but I was hoping I could widdle it down some how. Greg, I would be interested i= n your suggestion for doing that. I'm putting this 20B in a BD-4.=

Robert

 

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

----- Original Message -----

From: Greg Ward

Sent: Tuesday, Febru= ary 03, 2009 11:10 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : 20B manifold

 

Al, you don't= want the stock exhaust.  Get one built.  If you want to know one way i= t's done, let me know.

Greg Ward

Lancair 20B i= n progress

----- Original Message -----

From: Al Gietzen

Sent: Tuesday, Febru= ary 03, 2009 8:25 PM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re= : 20B manifold

 

 

Does anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that came with their engine that I could buy?

 

No; but I do know the thing is massively heavy.  I looked = at one when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very interesting f= or an aircraft.  Maybe if radically modified . . . Just my opinion.

 

Al G

 

 

 

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