X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from is1.mum.edu ([69.18.50.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3478695 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:07:38 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.18.50.66; envelope-from=rob@mum.edu Received: from AcerComm1 ([10.10.0.58]) by is1.mum.edu (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with SMTP id n15L6vLK003596 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:06:57 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "Rob" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:06:57 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0045_01C987A3.633F94A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-WatchGuard-IPS: message checked X-WatchGuard-Spam-ID: str=0001.0A09020B.498B551B.0113,ss=1,fgs=0 X-WatchGuard-Spam-Score: 0, clean; 0, no virus X-WatchGuard-Mail-Client-IP: 172.16.0.66 X-WatchGuard-Mail-From: rob@mum.edu X-WatchGuard-Mail-Recipients: flyrotary@lancaironline.net X-WatchGuard-AntiVirus: part scanned. clean action=allow This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C987A3.633F94A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-WatchGuard-AntiVirus: part scanned. clean action=allow You must have had streight pipes out the side of the cowl. Mine go under = the cabin. My BD-4 with the 20B should be about the same weight or less = as the Ford V-6. Robert Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Whaley=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:14 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford V6 ... was 20B manifold Hi Robert, I too used to have the Ford V6; loved the throaty sound but = not the weight. My conversion from the V6 to the 13B saved me 60lbs . 44 = lbs for the FWF and 16 lbs of ballast in the tail! Jeff =20 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Rob Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:59 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Thanks Bill for your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it = seems the Reneses manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as = well as stand up to the heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on = what I have read on this list so far.. What I'm most concerned about is = the noise. I currently fly a BD-4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly = trying to get the noise to some reasonable level. Would adapting the = Reneses be worth the trouble, in your opinion? Or how about adapting two = 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Robert =20 Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu =20 =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Robert, The manifold could probably be lightened for non-turbo applications. = The problem is that if you remove material in the wrong place the cast = iron is likely to crack. Even if you want a non-tuned log manifold you = are going to be way ahead by making it from SS tubing and plate. The = only reason for the cast manifolds at all is the ability to make them = cheaply in production. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Rob To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Bill, Do you think the 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a = waste of time to even attempt it. =20 Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Rob, I have a 20B and the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy = chunk of cast iron. I don't think it would be in danger of melting, but = is just too heavy. I do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would = be made to fit practically. The Renesis has side ports with a = rectangular profile. The 20B is a 13B with an extra rotor and one of the = spacings is longer due to the intermediate housing. The best method is = going to be a built up manifold, aand several are available over the = counter. Usually expensive, but much less hassle. Racing Beat made one = for using a single turbo for racing in the past. I don't know if it is = still available. Bill Jepson=20 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob,=20 =20 The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shell, and a = heat shield on top of that. I'm not positive, but the inner shell could = possibly be made of inconel. The outer shell appears to be stainless = (probably 321).=20 =20 Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have often wondered = if it could be modified to work on a 3-rotor. Keep in mind that the = port spacing on the Renesis is the same while the 20B unequally spaced. = That's due to the one larger side housing that contains the 3rd main = bearing. So, if the ports are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, = you would still have to add an extension between two of the ports to = make it line up. If that is all it requires to make it fit, it could be = worth a try. =20 =20 Mark S. =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob wrote: I would be interested to know the weight. I didn't realize that a = cast exhaust manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It sounds like = the Renesis manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis manifold stainless = steel or what? Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Robert,=20 =20 I have one that came with my 20B. I don't want to sound = negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on an a/c. First, it = is incredibly heavy because it is designed to incorporate the twin = turbos. And it is made of cast iron, so it would probably melt at = prolonged WOT operation. And the passages are very restrictive to = exhaust flow. I could weigh mine and send some pictures if you wish. = Sorry, but I don't want to get rid of it because I have plans for a = 3-rotor auto installation where it would be useable. Maybe you could = modify a Renesis manifold to fit. It would require some welding, but it = is probably more likely to work than the original 20B manifold.=20 =20 The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail material. = I built my first manifold using that material and after 100 hours it = looks like it would last for a very long time. Ed Anderson has been = using this material on his a/c for a long time. My exhause flange = material was 1/2" mild carbon steel and it was holding up fine as it = doen'st see the high heat that the pipes do. The problem was with the = mufflers. They take a real beating. Try to space the muffler as far = away from the engine as possible. =20 =20 Mark S. =20 =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob wrote: Al and Greg, Thanks for your replys on this subject. I realize the manifold = would be too heavy but I was hoping I could widdle it down some how. = Greg, I would be interested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm = putting this 20B in a BD-4. Robert=20 =20 Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 Al, you don't want the stock exhaust. Get one built. If you = want to know one way it's done, let me know. Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold =20 =20 Does anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that = came with their engine that I could buy? =20 No; but I do know the thing is massively heavy. I looked at = one when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very = interesting for an aircraft. Maybe if radically modified . . . Just my = opinion. =20 Al G =20 =20 --Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20 =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0045_01C987A3.633F94A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-WatchGuard-AntiVirus: part scanned. clean action=allow
You must have had streight pipes out = the side of=20 the cowl. Mine go under the cabin. My BD-4 with the 20B should be about = the same=20 weight or less as the Ford V-6.
Robert
 
Robert Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Jeff=20 Whaley
Sent: Thursday, February 05, = 2009 1:14=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Ford = V6 ... was=20 20B manifold

Hi=20 Robert, I too used to have the Ford V6; loved the throaty sound but = not the=20 weight. My conversion from the V6 to the 13B saved me 60lbs =85 44 lbs = for the=20 FWF and 16 lbs of ballast in the tail!

Jeff

 

From: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of=20 Rob
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:59 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 manifold

 

Thanks = Bill for=20 your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it seems the Reneses = manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as well as stand up = to the=20 heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on what I have read on this = list so=20 far.. What I'm most concerned about is the noise. I currently = fly a BD-4=20 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly trying to get the noise to some = reasonable=20 level.  Would adapting the Reneses be worth the trouble, in your = opinion?=20 Or how about adapting two 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on this would = be=20 appreciated.

Robert

 

Robert=20 Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu

 

 

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: = Thursday,=20 February 05, 2009 11:00 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re:=20 20B manifold

 

Robert,
The = manifold could=20 probably be lightened for non-turbo applications. The problem is = that if you=20 remove material in the wrong place the cast iron is likely to crack. = Even if=20 you want a non-tuned log manifold you are going to be way ahead by = making it=20 from SS tubing and plate. The only reason for the cast manifolds at = all is=20 the ability to make them cheaply in production.
Bill=20 Jepson

-----Original Message-----
From: Rob=20 <rob@mum.edu>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16=20 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Bill,

Do you = think the=20 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a waste of time to = even=20 attempt it.

 

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

----- = Original=20 Message -----

From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20

Sent: = Wednesday,=20 February 04, 2009 12:46 PM

Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: 20B manifold

 

Rob,
I have = a 20B and=20 the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy chunk of cast = iron. I=20 don't think it would be in danger of melting, but is just too = heavy. I do=20 NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would be made to fit = practically.=20 The Renesis has side ports with a rectangular profile. The 20B is = a 13B=20 with an extra rotor and one of the spacings is longer due to the=20 intermediate housing. The best method is going to be a built up = manifold,=20 aand several are available over the counter. Usually expensive, = but much=20 less hassle. Racing Beat made one for using a single turbo for = racing in=20 the past. I don't know if it is still available.
Bill=20 Jepson 


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark = Steitle=20 <msteitle@gmail.com>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 manifold

Rob,

 

The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an = outer=20 shell, and a heat shield on top of that.  I'm not positive, = but the=20 inner shell could possibly be made of inconel.  The = outer=20 shell appears to be stainless (probably = 321). 

 

Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I = have often=20 wondered if it could be modified to work on a 3-rotor.  Keep = in mind=20 that the port spacing on the Renesis is the same while = the 20B=20 unequally spaced.  That's due to the one larger side = housing=20 that contains the 3rd main bearing.  So, = if the ports=20 are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, you would still have = to add=20 an extension between two of the ports to make it line = up. =20 If that is all it requires to make it fit, it could be worth = a=20 try.  

 

Mark=20 S.  

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob <rob@mum.edu> = wrote:

I = would be=20 interested to know the weight. I didn't realize that a cast = exhaust=20 manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It sounds like the = Renesis=20 manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis = manifold stainless=20 steel or what?

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA = 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

-----=20 Original Message -----

Sent: = Wednesday,=20 February 04, 2009 8:10 AM

Subject: = [FlyRotary]=20 Re: 20B manifold

 

Robert,

 

I have one that came with my 20B.  I = don't want=20 to sound negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on = an=20 a/c.  First, it is incredibly heavy because it is designed = to=20 incorporate the twin turbos.  And it is made of cast iron, = so it=20 would probably melt at prolonged WOT operation.  And = the=20 passages are very restrictive to = exhaust flow.  I=20 could weigh mine and send some pictures if you wish.  = Sorry, but I=20 don't want to get rid of it because I have plans for a 3-rotor = auto=20 installation where it would be useable.  Maybe you could = modify a=20 Renesis manifold to fit.  It would require some welding, = but it is=20 probably more likely to work than the original 20B=20 manifold. 

 

The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS = handrail=20 material.  I built my first manifold using that material = and after=20 100 hours it looks like it would last for a very long = time.  Ed=20 Anderson has been using this material on his a/c for a long = time.  My exhause flange material was 1/2" mild carbon = steel and it=20 was holding up fine as it doen'st see the high heat that the = pipes=20 do.  The problem was with the mufflers.  They take a = real=20 beating.  Try to space the muffler as far away from the = engine as=20 possible. 

 

Mark S.

 



 

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob <rob@mum.edu> = wrote:

Al = and=20 Greg,

Thanks for=20 your replys on this subject. I realize the manifold would be too = heavy=20 but I was hoping I could widdle it down some how. Greg, I would = be=20 interested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm putting this = 20B in a=20 BD-4.

Robert=20

 

Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield = IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu

-----=20 Original Message -----

From: = Greg Ward=20

To: = Rotary motors in=20 aircraft

Sent: = Tuesday,=20 February 03, 2009 11:10 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

 

Al, you don't=20 want the stock exhaust.  Get one built.  If you want = to know=20 one way it's done, let me = know.

Greg=20 Ward

Lancair 20B=20 in progress

-----=20 Original Message -----

From: Al=20 Gietzen

To: Rotary motors in = aircraft

Sent: Tuesday,=20 February 03, 2009 8:25 PM

Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

 

 

Does=20 anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that came=20 with their engine that I could=20 buy?

 

No;=20 but I do know the thing is massively heavy.  I looked = at one=20 when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very=20 interesting for an aircraft.  Maybe if radically = modified . . .=20 Just my opinion.

 

Al=20 = G

=

 

 

 

 

Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at = $499.=20

 

Great=20 Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20

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