X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from is1.mum.edu ([69.18.50.66] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.12) with ESMTP id 3478386 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:59:46 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=69.18.50.66; envelope-from=rob@mum.edu Received: from AcerComm1 ([10.10.0.58]) by is1.mum.edu (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with SMTP id n15Ix3GY019639 for ; Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:59:04 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "Rob" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:59:03 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C98791.855C82D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-WatchGuard-IPS: message checked X-WatchGuard-Spam-ID: str=0001.0A010208.498B3724.0080,ss=1,fgs=0 X-WatchGuard-Spam-Score: 0, clean; 0, no virus X-WatchGuard-Mail-Client-IP: 172.16.0.66 X-WatchGuard-Mail-From: rob@mum.edu X-WatchGuard-Mail-Recipients: flyrotary@lancaironline.net X-WatchGuard-AntiVirus: part scanned. clean action=allow This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C98791.855C82D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-WatchGuard-AntiVirus: part scanned. clean action=allow Thanks Bill for your advise. I guess I will make my own, although it = seems the Reneses manifold is quit well constructed to reduce noise as = well as stand up to the heat in conjunction with a muffler, based on = what I have read on this list so far.. What I'm most concerned about is = the noise. I currently fly a BD-4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly = trying to get the noise to some reasonable level. Would adapting the = Reneses be worth the trouble, in your opinion? Or how about adapting two = 13-B manifolds? Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Robert Robert Bollinger MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST Fairfield IA 52557 (641)919-3213 rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 11:00 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Robert, The manifold could probably be lightened for non-turbo applications. = The problem is that if you remove material in the wrong place the cast = iron is likely to crack. Even if you want a non-tuned log manifold you = are going to be way ahead by making it from SS tubing and plate. The = only reason for the cast manifolds at all is the ability to make them = cheaply in production. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Rob To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Bill, Do you think the 20B manifold could be lightened or would it be a = waste of time to even attempt it. Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: wrjjrs@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:46 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob, I have a 20B and the manifold without the turbos is a very heavy = chunk of cast iron. I don't think it would be in danger of melting, but = is just too heavy. I do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust manifold would = be made to fit practically. The Renesis has side ports with a = rectangular profile. The 20B is a 13B with an extra rotor and one of the = spacings is longer due to the intermediate housing. The best method is = going to be a built up manifold, aand several are available over the = counter. Usually expensive, but much less hassle. Racing Beat made one = for using a single turbo for racing in the past. I don't know if it is = still available. Bill Jepson=20 -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Rob,=20 The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shell, and a heat = shield on top of that. I'm not positive, but the inner shell could = possibly be made of inconel. The outer shell appears to be stainless = (probably 321).=20 Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have often wondered if = it could be modified to work on a 3-rotor. Keep in mind that the port = spacing on the Renesis is the same while the 20B unequally spaced. = That's due to the one larger side housing that contains the 3rd main = bearing. So, if the ports are big enough, and the bolt pattern matches, = you would still have to add an extension between two of the ports to = make it line up. If that is all it requires to make it fit, it could be = worth a try. =20 Mark S. =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob wrote: I would be interested to know the weight. I didn't realize that a = cast exhaust manifold made for a 20B could actually melt. It sounds like = the Renesis manifold would be better.. Is the Renesis manifold stainless = steel or what? Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 8:10 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Robert,=20 I have one that came with my 20B. I don't want to sound = negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on an a/c. First, it = is incredibly heavy because it is designed to incorporate the twin = turbos. And it is made of cast iron, so it would probably melt at = prolonged WOT operation. And the passages are very restrictive to = exhaust flow. I could weigh mine and send some pictures if you wish. = Sorry, but I don't want to get rid of it because I have plans for a = 3-rotor auto installation where it would be useable. Maybe you could = modify a Renesis manifold to fit. It would require some welding, but it = is probably more likely to work than the original 20B manifold.=20 The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail material. = I built my first manifold using that material and after 100 hours it = looks like it would last for a very long time. Ed Anderson has been = using this material on his a/c for a long time. My exhause flange = material was 1/2" mild carbon steel and it was holding up fine as it = doen'st see the high heat that the pipes do. The problem was with the = mufflers. They take a real beating. Try to space the muffler as far = away from the engine as possible. =20 Mark S. =20 On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob wrote: Al and Greg, Thanks for your replys on this subject. I realize the manifold = would be too heavy but I was hoping I could widdle it down some how. = Greg, I would be interested in your suggestion for doing that. I'm = putting this 20B in a BD-4. Robert=20 Robert Bollinger MR722 MUM Fairfield IA 52557 (641)472-7000 ex2068 (641)919-3213 cell rob@mum.edu ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg Ward=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:10 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Al, you don't want the stock exhaust. Get one built. If = you want to know one way it's done, let me know. Greg Ward Lancair 20B in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold Does anyone on this list have a 20B exhaust manifold that = came with their engine that I could buy? No; but I do know the thing is massively heavy. I looked = at one when I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very = interesting for an aircraft. Maybe if radically modified . . . Just my = opinion. Al G -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499.=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C98791.855C82D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-WatchGuard-AntiVirus: part scanned. clean action=allow
Thanks Bill for your advise. I guess I = will make my=20 own, although it seems the Reneses manifold is quit well constructed to = reduce=20 noise as well as stand up to the heat in conjunction with a muffler, = based on=20 what I have read on this list so far.. What I'm most concerned about is = the=20 noise. I currently fly a BD-4 with a Ford V-6 and I'm constantly = trying to=20 get the noise to some reasonable level.  Would adapting the Reneses = be=20 worth the trouble, in your opinion? Or how about adapting two 13-B = manifolds?=20 Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.
Robert
 
Robert Bollinger
MR 722, 1000 N,4th ST
Fairfield IA = 52557
(641)919-3213
rob@mum.edu
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 wrjjrs@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, February 05, = 2009 11:00=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 manifold

Robert,
The manifold could probably be lightened for = non-turbo applications. The problem is that if you remove material in = the=20 wrong place the cast iron is likely to crack. Even if you want a = non-tuned log=20 manifold you are going to be way ahead by making it from SS tubing and = plate.=20 The only reason for the cast manifolds at all is the ability to make = them=20 cheaply in production.
Bill Jepson

-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Rob <rob@mum.edu>
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 8:16=20 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B manifold

Bill,
Do you think the 20B manifold could = be lightened=20 or would it be a waste of time to even attempt it.
 
Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA = 52557
(641)472-7000=20 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 wrjjrs@aol.com=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 04, = 2009=20 12:46 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 manifold

Rob,
I have a 20B and the manifold without the = turbos is a=20 very heavy chunk of cast iron. I don't think it would be in danger = of=20 melting, but is just too heavy. I do NOT believe the Renesis Exhaust = manifold would be made to fit practically. The Renesis has side = ports with a=20 rectangular profile. The 20B is a 13B with an extra rotor and one of = the=20 spacings is longer due to the intermediate housing. The best method = is going=20 to be a built up manifold, aand several are available over the = counter.=20 Usually expensive, but much less hassle. Racing Beat made one for = using a=20 single turbo for racing in the past. I don't know if it is still=20 available.
Bill Jepson 


-----Original=20 Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: = Rotary=20 motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Wed, 4 Feb 2009 9:34 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B = manifold

Rob,
 
The Renesis manifold has an inner shell, an outer shell, and a = heat=20 shield on top of that.  I'm not positive, but the inner=20 shell could possibly be made of inconel.  The outer = shell=20 appears to be stainless (probably 321). 
 
Since the Renesis has three exhaust ports, I have often = wondered if it=20 could be modified to work on a 3-rotor.  Keep in mind that the = port=20 spacing on the Renesis is the same while the 20B unequally = spaced.  That's due to the one larger side housing that = contains=20 the 3rd main bearing.  So, if the ports are big = enough,=20 and the bolt pattern matches, you would still have to add = an extension=20 between two of the ports to make it line up.  If that is = all it=20 requires to make it fit, it could be worth a = try.  
 
Mark S.  

On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:12 AM, Rob <rob@mum.edu>=20 wrote:
I would be interested to know the = weight. I=20 didn't realize that a cast exhaust manifold made for a 20B could = actually=20 melt. It sounds like the Renesis manifold would be better.. = Is the=20 Renesis manifold stainless steel or what?
Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA = 52557
(641)472-7000=20 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Mark=20 Steitle
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Wednesday, February = 04, 2009=20 8:10 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 20B=20 manifold

Robert,
 
I have one that came with my 20B.  I don't want to = sound=20 negative, but I don't think it is realistic to use on an = a/c. =20 First, it is incredibly heavy because it is designed to = incorporate the=20 twin turbos.  And it is made of cast iron, so it would = probably=20 melt at prolonged WOT operation.  And the passages=20 are very restrictive to exhaust flow.  I = could weigh=20 mine and send some pictures if you wish.  Sorry, but I = don't want=20 to get rid of it because I have plans for a 3-rotor auto = installation=20 where it would be useable.  Maybe you could modify a = Renesis=20 manifold to fit.  It would require some welding, but it is = probably=20 more likely to work than the original 20B manifold. 
 
The cheapest manifold would be to use 304SS handrail=20 material.  I built my first manifold using that material = and after=20 100 hours it looks like it would last for a very long = time.  Ed=20 Anderson has been using this material on his a/c for a long = time.  My exhause flange material was 1/2" mild carbon = steel and it=20 was holding up fine as it doen'st see the high heat that the = pipes=20 do.  The problem was with the mufflers.  They take a = real=20 beating.  Try to space the muffler as far away from the = engine as=20 possible. 
 
Mark S.
 


 
On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 7:43 AM, Rob = <rob@mum.edu>=20 wrote:
Al and Greg,
Thanks for your replys on = this subject. I=20 realize the manifold would be too heavy but I was hoping I = could=20 widdle it down some how. Greg, I would be interested in your=20 suggestion for doing that. I'm putting this 20B in a=20 BD-4.
Robert
 
Robert Bollinger
MR722 MUM
Fairfield IA=20 52557
(641)472-7000 ex2068
(641)919-3213 cell
rob@mum.edu
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Greg Ward
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, = February 03,=20 2009 11:10 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: 20B=20 manifold

Al, you don't want the stock=20 exhaust.  Get one built.  If you want to know one = way it's=20 done, let me know.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B in=20 progress
----- Original Message = -----
From: Al=20 Gietzen
To: Rotary motors = in=20 aircraft
Sent: Tuesday, = February 03,=20 2009 8:25 PM
Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 manifold

 
Does anyone = on this=20 list have a 20B exhaust manifold that came with their = engine=20 that I could buy?
 
No; but=20 I do know the thing is massively heavy.  I looked at = one when=20 I got my engine, and decided quickly it was not very = interesting=20 for an aircraft.  Maybe if radically modified . . . = Just my=20 opinion.
 
Al=20 = G



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