X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.188] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTPS id 3414153 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:03:41 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.188; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d58-109-48-212.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [58.109.48.212]) by mail07.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n0762oDk002165 for ; Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:02:51 +1100 Message-ID: <91B6D0FE0BE6441E8669D68771DEDC77@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:02:55 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000D_01C970E1.66CA3450" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 090106-1, 06/01/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C970E1.66CA3450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I agree with Tracy also, so mine has the volume and all the things Lynn = mentioned - it's not terribly big but is a bit heavy due mostly to the = thickness of the metal. George ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 1:16 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome George, I agree and that's why my muffler isnt in the cowl. But I also agree = with Tracy - unless/until somebody finds the magic muffler, the best = solution to this problem is muffler volume. A large muffler isnt going = to work on my airplane. Perhaps a different airplane with more space = within the cowl would accomodate a muffler and some heat shielding, but = that option doesnt apply for me. So I wish you luck with your design - I = could use it. Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:50 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome Mike, Mufflers were never designed to fit into engine bays because of the = size and heat, that's why I have decided to have mine outside the cowl. = The fact that it is designed for cooling air both internally and = externally, and is designed aerodynamically for that, I believe that's = the best place for it. It may be that I can incorporate it into a cowl = design so that it's not too draggy - will just have to wait and see. BTW Bill Jepson had a big input into this design, but I have been a = long time in proving the design. George (down under) ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mike Wills=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 12:54 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome I thought about it, but that hardware doesnt fit well in the RV-4 = cowl either. Mike ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 5:35 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome Mike,=20 Actually, reducing exhaust noise is one of the beneifts of = turbo-charging. Mark S. On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Mike Wills = wrote: Well when the E-Racer that was built by George Graham was on = the airport it was about the only prop plane louder than mine. That = airplane was ear splitting loud. So I'm not sold on the prop as a noise = reducer. Give yourself more credit Al, you've actually engineered and = built a muffler that works. Mike Wills ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 8:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome I guess the prop chopping the noise stream could account for = some of the perception of quietness. As for the muffler/resonator, 6db = is a significant reduction. I think I still have the drawings you = provided. The nice thing about the tangential muffler design is that it = will fit inside my cowl. The muffler/resonator should fit where the = Hushpower 2 is now. We'll see. Mark On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al Gietzen = wrote: Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome My exhaust exits about 6-7 inches from prop and goes = through near the root of the blades (pusher). It occurs to me that = having my exhaust exit through the prop may help reduce or mask the = exhaust noise. On a takeoff roll there is a prop blade breaking that = exhaust stream about 130 times per second. Let's see, that's about 1 = blade passing for every two exhaust pulses on the 20B =96 could make a = difference. The secondary muffler/resonator I have also helps. On the = dyno we measured that resulted in about 6 db reduction. Al G Agree. Unfortunately, that's not a comment I hear. On = the contrary, they usually tell me that they can hear me before they can = see me. ;-( =20 Mark S. ANR headsets mandatory On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Al Gietzen = wrote: I'm presently gathering materials to fabricate a = tangential muffler made from inconel, similar to your design. I take it = from your report that your muffler is holding up well? =20 Mark S. So far it is doing fine. And the inconel tangential and = the 321SS secondary muffler (my own design) quiet it down nicely. A few = days ago I picked up my brother to go for a ride, while my sister-in-law = waited and watched other planes come and go. When we got back her = remark was that my plane was quieter than all the rest. I consider that = to be 'expert testimony'J. Al G On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Al Gietzen = wrote: Al,=20 That's a great shot. Have you had any "significant = issues" with your install? If so, how did you overcome them? Mark S. =20 I had 2 issues that required some time and determination. = The first was the RWS EC2. I had an early version for the 3-rotor, and = perhaps the first installed in a composite airplane. I had some kind of = electrical noise related corruption of settings which persisted through = a lot of effort for over a years time. It has been resolved, and the = engine running fine. That has been discussed here more than once in the = past. The other was less-than-expected performance of an oil = cooler built into the wing root, without much of a scoop for the inlet = below the wing. The theory was that the differential pressure = below/above the wing would help provide the necessary air flow. Not the = case here as the location is too far back on the wing; and behind the = strake (the inboard section on the canard airplane). The pressure = differential turned out to be only about 1" H20 =96 very little help. I = added a ram scoop, and installed a small oil/water heat exchanger in the = cowl. Currently oil temps are fine, and the coolant temp is running a = bit lower than I like at cruise. I may eventually install some sort of = air flow adjustment, or even consider installing a thermostat in the = engine. You may recall discussion of these changes here in the past as = well. I'm just past 140 hours flying time, and feel quite = fortunate with how well things have worked out. Performance and economy = are great. Al G http://members.cox.net/alg3/airplane.htm ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C970E1.66CA3450 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike,
I agree with Tracy also, so mine has = the volume and=20 all the things Lynn mentioned - it's not terribly big but is a bit heavy = due=20 mostly to the thickness of the metal.
George
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mike = Wills
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, = 2009 1:16=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B = install=20 issues overcome

George,
 
 I agree and that's why my = muffler isnt in=20 the cowl. But I also agree with Tracy - unless/until somebody finds = the magic=20 muffler, the best solution to this problem is muffler volume. A large = muffler=20 isnt going to work on my airplane. Perhaps a different airplane with = more=20 space within the cowl would accomodate  a muffler and some heat=20 shielding, but that option doesnt apply for me. So I wish you luck = with your=20 design - I could use it.
 
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George Lendich
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, = 2009 12:50=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B = install=20 issues overcome

Mike,
Mufflers were never designed to fit = into engine=20 bays because of the size and heat, that's why I have decided to have = mine=20 outside the cowl. The fact that it is designed for cooling air both=20 internally and externally, and is designed aerodynamically for that, = I=20 believe that's the best place for it. It may be that I can = incorporate it=20 into a cowl design so that it's not too draggy - will just have to = wait and=20 see.
BTW Bill Jepson had a big input = into this=20 design, but I have been a long time in proving the = design.
George (down under)
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Mike = Wills=20
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, = 2009 12:54=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 20B install=20 issues overcome

I thought about it, but that = hardware doesnt=20 fit well in the RV-4 cowl either.
 
Mike
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Mark=20 Steitle
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Monday, January 05, = 2009 5:35=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 20B=20 install issues overcome

Mike,
 
Actually, reducing exhaust noise is one of the beneifts of=20 turbo-charging.
 
Mark S.

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 8:35 PM, Mike = Wills <rv-4mike@cox.net> = wrote:
Well when the E-Racer that = was built by=20 George Graham was on the airport it was about the only prop = plane=20 louder than mine. That airplane was ear splitting loud. So I'm = not=20 sold on the prop as a noise reducer. Give yourself more credit = Al,=20 you've actually engineered and built a muffler that=20 works.
 
Mike = Wills
----- Original Message ----- =
From: Mark Steitle
To: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft
Sent: Sunday, January = 04, 2009=20 8:45 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = Re: 20B=20 install issues overcome

I guess the prop chopping the noise stream = could=20 account for some of the perception of quietness.  As = for the=20 muffler/resonator, 6db is a significant reduction.  I = think I=20 still have the drawings you provided.  The nice thing = about the=20 tangential muffler design is that it will fit inside my = cowl. =20 The muffler/resonator should fit where the Hushpower 2 is = now. =20 We'll see.

Mark

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al = Gietzen=20 <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:

Subject: = [FlyRotary] Re: 20B=20 install issues overcome

 

My=20 exhaust exits about 6-7 inches from prop and goes through = near the=20 root of the blades (pusher). It occurs to me that having = my=20 exhaust exit through the prop may help reduce or mask the = exhaust=20 noise.  On a takeoff roll there is a prop blade = breaking that=20 exhaust stream about 130 times per second. Let's see, = that's about=20 1 blade passing for every two exhaust pulses on the 20B = =96 could=20 make a difference.

 

The=20 secondary muffler/resonator I have also helps.  On = the dyno=20 we measured that resulted in about 6 db=20 reduction.

 

Al=20 G

Agree.  Unfortunately, = that's not a=20 comment I hear.  On the contrary, they usually tell = me that=20 they can hear me before they can see me.  ;-( =20

Mark S.
ANR headsets = mandatory

On = Sun, Jan 4,=20 2009 at 12:22 AM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:

I'm=20 presently gathering materials to fabricate a tangential = muffler=20 made from inconel, similar to your design.  I take it = from=20 your report that your muffler is holding up well?  =  =20     

Mark S.

 

So far=20 it is doing fine.  And the inconel tangential and the = 321SS=20 secondary muffler (my own design) quiet it down = nicely.  A=20 few days ago I picked up my brother to go for a ride, = while my=20 sister-in-law waited and watched other planes come and = go. =20 When we got back her remark was that my plane was quieter = than all=20 the rest.  I consider that to be 'expert=20 testimony'J.

Al=20 G

On = Sat, Jan 3,=20 2009 at 5:47 PM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:

Al,=20

That's a great shot.  Have you had any = "significant=20 issues" with your install?  If so, how did you = overcome=20 them?
Mark S. 

I had 2=20 issues that required some time and determination. The = first was=20 the RWS EC2.  I had an early version for the 3-rotor, = and=20 perhaps the first installed in a composite airplane. =  I had=20 some kind of electrical noise related corruption of = settings which=20 persisted through a lot of effort for over a years time. = It has=20 been resolved, and the engine running fine.  That has = been=20 discussed here more than once in the = past.

The=20 other was less-than-expected performance of an oil cooler = built=20 into the wing root, without much of a scoop for the inlet = below=20 the wing.  The theory was that the differential = pressure=20 below/above the wing would help provide the necessary air=20 flow.  Not the case here as the location is too far = back on=20 the wing; and behind the strake (the inboard section on = the canard=20 airplane).  The pressure differential turned out to = be only=20 about 1" H20 =96 very little help.  I added a ram = scoop, and=20 installed a small oil/water heat exchanger in the = cowl. =20 Currently oil temps are fine, and the coolant temp is = running a=20 bit lower than I like at cruise.  I may eventually = install=20 some sort of air flow adjustment, or even consider = installing a=20 thermostat in the engine.  You may recall discussion = of these=20 changes here in the past as well.

I'm=20 just past 140 hours flying time, and feel quite fortunate = with how=20 well things have worked out.  Performance and economy = are=20 great.

Al=20 G   http://members.cox.net/alg3/airplane.htm

 

 

 

 



<= /BLOCKQUOTE> ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C970E1.66CA3450--