X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com ([64.12.137.4] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.11) with ESMTP id 3411763 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:41:42 -0500 Received: from WRJJRS@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v39.1.) id q.c19.4b585492 (34993) for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:41:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com [64.12.207.140]) by cia-db01.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILCIADB016-5c464962626b2dd; Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:41:36 -0500 Received: from MBLK-M01 (mblk-m01.mblk.aol.com [64.12.136.34]) by smtprly-ma01.mx.aol.com (v121_r5.5) with ESMTP id MAILSMTPRLYMA014-5c464962626b2dd; Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:41:31 -0500 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:41:31 -0500 X-AOL-IP: 66.253.96.220 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wrjjrs@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8CB3D84BE6A8500_964_3F8_MBLK-M01.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL Webmail 40627-STANDARD Received: from 66.253.96.220 by MBLK-M01.sysops.aol.com (64.12.136.34) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 05 Jan 2009 14:41:31 -0500 Message-Id: <8CB3D84BE49243E-964-201@MBLK-M01.sysops.aol.com> X-Spam-Flag:NO ----------MB_8CB3D84BE6A8500_964_3F8_MBLK-M01.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Mark,=20 No I don't, but most ICE's don't have the exhaust temp of the rotary. Mistra= l is moving toward certification with their version of the 20B so the exhaus= t will have to hold up for a long time. With a proper annular exit the exhau= st should draw the air through too. So no moving parts. Bill -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:04 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome Bill,=20 =C2=A0 Yes, I remember the discussions surrouding the cool tube.=C2=A0 I may give i= t a try, if for no other reason but to help the muffler live a little longer= .=C2=A0 Lowering the EGT surely couldn't hurt anything.=C2=A0 Do you know of= anyone who has actually tried the cool tube idea?=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 Mark On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:48 AM, wrote: Mark, Take a look at the newest Mistral pictures. They are using a tangental with=20= a "cool tube" something that I drew several years ago for PL's site. They us= e a large down pipe with a annular exit around the tube. If you are doing so= mething new it is worth a look. Material is 321 I think. Bill Jepson -----Original Message----- From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 8:45 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome I guess the prop chopping the noise stream could account for some of the per= ception of quietness.=C2=A0 As20for the muffler/resonator, 6db is a signific= ant reduction.=C2=A0 I think I still have the drawings you provided.=C2=A0 T= he nice thing about the tangential muffler design is that it will fit inside= my cowl.=C2=A0 The muffler/resonator should fit where the Hushpower 2 is no= w.=C2=A0 We'll see. Mark On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al Gietzen wrote: Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome =C2=A0 My exhaust exits about 6-7 inches from prop and goes through near the root o= f the blades (pusher). It occurs to me that having my exhaust exit through t= he prop may help reduce or mask the exhaust noise. =C2=A0On a takeoff roll t= here is a prop blade breaking that exhaust stream about 130 times per second= . Let's see, that's about 1 blade passing for every two exhaust pulses on th= e 20B =E2=80=93 could make a difference. =C2=A0 The secondary muffler/resonator I have also helps. =C2=A0On the dyno we meas= ured that resulted in about 6 db reduction. =C2=A0 Al G Agr ee.=C2=A0 Unfortunately, that's not a comment I hear.=C2=A0 On the contr= ary, they usually tell me that they can hear me before they can see me.=C2= =A0 ;-(=C2=A0=20 Mark S. ANR headsets mandatory On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:22 AM, Al Gietzen wrote: I'm presently gathering materials to fabricate a tangential muffler made fro= m inconel, similar to your design.=C2=A0 I take it from your report that you= r muffler is holding up well?=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=20 Mark S. =C2=A0=3D0 A So far it is doing fine. =C2=A0And the inconel tangential and the 321SS seco= ndary muffler (my own design) quiet it down nicely.=C2=A0 A few days ago I p= icked up my brother to go for a ride, while my sister-in-law waited and watc= hed other planes come and go.=C2=A0 When we got back her remark was tha t my= plane was quieter than all the rest. =C2=A0I consider that to be 'expert te= stimony'J. Al G On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Al Gietzen wrote: Al,=20 That's a great shot.=C2=A0 Have you had any "significant issues" with your i= nstall?=C2=A0 If so, how did you overcome them? Mark S.=C2=A0=20 I had 2 issues that required some time and determination. The first was the=20= RWS EC2.=C2=A0 I had an early version for the 3-rotor, and perhaps the first= installed in a composite airplane. =C2=A0I had some kind of electrical nois= e related corruption of settings which persisted through a lot of effort for= over a years time. It has been resolved, and the engine running fine.=C2= =A0 That has been discussed here more than once in the past. The other was less-than-expected performance of an oil cooler built into the= wing root, without much of a scoop for the inlet below the wing. =C2=A0The=20= theory was that the differential pressure below/above the wing would help pr= ovide the necessary air flow.=C2=A0 Not the case here as the location is too= far back on the wing; and behind the strake (the inboard section on the can= ard airplane). =C2=A0The pressure differential turned out to be onl y about 1" H20 =E2=80=93 very little help.=C2=A0 I added a ram scoop, and in= stalled a small oil/water heat exchanger in the cowl.=C2=A0 Currently oil te= mps are fine, and the coolant temp is running a bit lower than I like at cru= ise.=C2=A0 I may eventually install some sort of air flow adjustment, or eve= n consider installing a thermostat in the engine. =C2=A0You may recall discu= ssion of these changes here in the past as well. I'm just past 140 hours flying time, and feel quite fortunate with how well=20= things have worked out.=C2=A0 Performance and economy are great. Al G=C2=A0=C2=A0 http://members.cox.net/alg3/airplane.htm =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Get a free MP3 every day with the Spinner.com Toolbar. Get it Now.=20 ----------MB_8CB3D84BE6A8500_964_3F8_MBLK-M01.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Mark,
No I don't, but most ICE's don't have the exhaust temp of the rotary. Mistra= l is moving toward certification with their version of the 20B so the exhaus= t will have to hold up for a long time. With a proper annular exit the exhau= st should draw the air through too. So no moving parts.
Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:04 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome

Bill,
 
Yes, I remember the discussions surrouding the cool tube.  I may g= ive it a try, if for no other reason but to help the muffler live a little l= onger.  Lowering the EGT surely couldn't hurt anything.  Do you kn= ow of anyone who has actually tried the cool tube idea? 
 
Mark

On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 11:48 AM, &l= t;wrjjrs@aol.com> wrote:
Mark,
Take a look at the newest Mistral pictures. They are using a tangental with=20= a "cool tube" something that I drew several years ago for PL's site. They us= e a large down pipe with a annular exit around the tube. If you are doing so= mething new it is worth a lo ok. Material is 321 I think.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.= com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 8:45 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues overcome

I guess the prop chopping the noise stream could account for some of th= e perception of quietness.  As for the muffler/resonator, 6db is a sign= ificant reduction.  I think I still have the drawings you provided.&nbs= p; The nice thing about the tangential muffler design is that it will fit in= side my cowl.  The muffler/resonator should fit where the Hushpower 2 i= s now.  We'll see.

Mark

On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 10:17 AM, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net>= ; wrote:
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 20B install issues= overcome
 
My exhaust exits about 6-7 inches fr= om prop and goes through near the root of the blades (pusher). It occurs to=20= me that having my exhaust exit through the prop may help reduce or mask the=20= exhaust noise.  On a takeoff roll there is a prop blade breaking that e= xhaust stream about 130 times per second. Let's see, that's about 1 blade pa= ssing for every two exhaust pulses on the 20B =E2=80=93 could make a differe= nce.
 
The secondary muffler/resonator I hav= e also helps.  On the dyno we measured that resulted in about 6 db redu= ction.
 
Al G
Agr ee= .  Unfortunately, that's not a comment I hear.  On the contrary, t= hey usually tell me that they can hear me before they can see me.  ;-(&= nbsp;

Mark S.
ANR headsets mandatory
= On Sun, Jan 4, 2009 at 12:22 A= M, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:
I'm pres= ently gathering materials to fabricate a tangential muffler made from incone= l, similar to your design.  I take it from your report that your muffle= r is holding up well?        

Mark S.
 
So far it is doing fine.  And the incon= el tangential and the 321SS secondary muffler (my own design) quiet it down=20= nicely.  A few days ago I picked up my brother to go for a ride, while=20= my sister-in-law waited and watched other planes come and go.  When we=20= got back her remark was tha t my plane was quieter than all the rest.  = I consider that to be 'expert testimony'J.<= /FONT>
Al G
Al,
That's a great shot.  Have you had any "significant issues" with your i= nstall?  If so, how did you overcome them?
Mark S. 
I had 2 issues that required some time and det= ermination. The first was the RWS EC2.  I had an early version for the=20= 3-rotor, and perhaps the first installed in a composite airplane.  I ha= d some kind of electrical noise related corruption of settings which persist= ed through a lot of effort for over a years time. It has been resolved, and=20= the engine running fine.  That has been discussed here more than once i= n the past.
The other was less-than-expected performance= of an oil cooler built into the wing root, without much of a scoop for the=20= inlet below the wing.  The theory was that the differential pressure be= low/above the wing would help provide the necessary air flow.  Not the=20= case here as the location is too far back on the wing; and behind the strake= (the inboard section on the canard airplane).  The pressure differenti= al turned out to be only about 1" H20 =E2=80=93 very little help.  I ad= ded a ram scoop, and installed a small oil/water heat exchanger in the cowl.=   Currently oil temps are fine, and the coolant temp is running a bit l= ower than I like at cruise.  I may eventually install some sort of air=20= flow adjustment, or even consider installing a thermostat in the engine. &nb= sp;You may recall discussion of these changes here in the past as well.
I'm just past 140 hours flying time, and feel=20= quite fortunate with how well things have worked out.  Performance and=20= economy are great.
 
 
 
 


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