Return-Path: Received: from [24.25.9.102] (HELO ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 4.1.8) with ESMTP id 2751780 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:54:17 -0500 Received: from o7y6b5 (clt78-020.carolina.rr.com [24.93.78.20]) by ms-smtp-03-eri0.southeast.rr.com (8.12.10/8.12.7) with SMTP id hAJIsFFn019552 for ; Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:54:15 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <001c01c3aece$100a1ca0$1702a8c0@WorkGroup> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Renisis Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 13:50:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0019_01C3AEA4.271282E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C3AEA4.271282E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gee JJJ I have to ask what kind of aircraft you are planning. 300 HP = continous equates to a fuel burn of approx 27.5 GPH! At $2.50 a gallon = =3D 2.50*27.5 =3D $68/hr just for gas. I mean 300HP continous would = certain pull something along pretty fast or pretty heavy or both. My personal redline is 6500 rpm on a 13B turbo block (without turbo) = - but I don't have to worry about it because the closest I've come thus = far is 6200 rpm. =20 Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJ JOHNSON=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 12:28 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Renisis Ed, and List Thanks for your great replies. I'm curious as to what it would = take to turbo the Renisis engine or if that's even a possibility. From = where I stand right now I'm just trying to balance my choices. Which = come down to 20B or Renisis. I would like to be able to get 275-300 = ponies continuously so that pretty much op's out the Renisis, unless a = person can turbo it? I'm not totally excited about the extra weight [w/ = the 20B] but sometimes that's the price to pay. I'm wondering if some of = you flying rotary people can tell me your personal rpm red lines for = your a/c. I'm wondering if anyone has ever taken the time to graphically = extrapolate the life of the apex seals vs. rpm. [I'm sure its not a = linear graph] Can a guy go and do the nesc. engine upgrades to enable it = to run 7500 continuously? Would the TBO go from 1500 hrs to 500? or.. = or..or..? I know some of these questions are just kinda .. out there.. = and there is no defined answer but I'd like to hear your opinions. I = wouldn't feel bad if I knew that w/ the Renisis engine I could run it = turbo'd at 7500-8000 rpm and know that as long as I did the apex = seals[or whatever time limited part] every 500 hrs I was ok. I'm sure = some of the racing crowd has had some experience is this regard, = slightly different use's but.. =20 I'm also sure most of you are shaking your head going... this nut = case............ ;-) Thanks again for the help Jarrett ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Renisis Jarrett, I'll take a stab at your questions. First, the HP rating of the = Renesis is in a bit of flux. It was orginally listed as approx 250HP at = somewhere around 9000 rpm. However, once folks got their hands on some = and put the on dynos, it became apparently that the engine did not = produce 250HP at least in its stock state. The latest figure I recall = was in the vicinity of 230 HP - still not bad. However, if you do a = search on the web on Renesis you may find some more recent figures. I don't think you will find any maximum continous ratings for any of = the rotaries. Clearly the higher RPM you run the engine the more stress = and wear. I personally have no quams about running the older 13B at = 6000 rpm the entire flight, although I normally fly it between 5200-5800 = due to the lower fuel burn. The literature indicates that the Renesis gets apporx 20% better = fuel economy - thats the good news, the bad knews is I understand that = is only gain occurs only at the lower rpms and that at the rpms we would = normally run it at - the 20% gain decreases considerably. No free = lunch - you want power, you burn fuel. Tracy's 2.85:1 and EC2 EFI should work with no problem. The weight = of the engine might be a few pounds less than a 13B but nothing = significant. The rotors are a pound lighter each and so the = counterweights are probably lighter as well, so maybe a 5 -10lb = reduction in weight over the 13B block - nothing significant in weight = savings like aluminum side housing would provide. I think it uses = direction ignition (one coil per plug) so that might save a few pounds = over the heavy 13B ignition system. =20 My personal opinion is that you can probably gain the same power out = of a 13B if you have the rotors lightened, heavy duty bearings/harden = gears and the entire rotating assembly dynamically balanced so you can = wind to higher rpms. Would also need the right induction and exhaust = system. I mean the racing guys can get over 250 HP with the NA 13B - = however, their reliability might be less than you would entertain for an = aircraft application.=20 Lynn could probably address what you can get out af a 13B better = than anybody on the list Lynn?? JJJ here are a couple of URLs on the Renesis that might help http://www.rx8.co.nz/Rotary/renesis.aspx http://asmic.com/collect/rotary1999/rotary_e.pdf 36 page PDF on the = rotary engine with some stuff on the Renesis Hope it helps Ed Ed Anderson RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com ----- Original Message -----=20 From: JJ JOHNSON=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Renisis Question for the list. I've seen lots of numbers thrown out there = as to how much power this engine is 'supposed' to produce. I'm wondering = if anyone has some concrete numbers as to how much 'continuous' hp's one = can expect at what rpm [what is the max continuous RPM recommended?]and = at what specific fuel burn? Also can this engine be turbo'd? I = understand from the Factory [in the Rx8] its NA. Tracy's 2.85:1 unit = should work on this engine?? As well as his electronic gizmo's? How far = is this engine as far as weights [installed] from the 13B? I've got = lots more but lets start there. [Or maybe someone has a web link they = can pass on that helps w/ these questions] I apologize if some are these = [ I suspect they probably are] redundant. Thanks Jarrett Johnson ------=_NextPart_000_0019_01C3AEA4.271282E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gee JJJ
 
    I have to ask what = kind of=20 aircraft you are planning.  300 HP continous equates to a fuel burn = of=20 approx 27.5 GPH!  At $2.50 a gallon =3D 2.50*27.5 =3D $68/hr = just for=20 gas.  I mean 300HP continous would certain pull something along = pretty fast=20 or pretty heavy or both.
 
   My personal redline is = 6500 rpm on a=20 13B turbo block (without turbo)  - but I don't have to worry about = it=20 because the closest I've come thus far is 6200 rpm. 
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 JJ=20 JOHNSON
Sent: Wednesday, November 19, = 2003 12:28=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Renisis

Ed, and List
 
    Thanks for your = great replies.=20 I'm curious as to what it would take to turbo the Renisis engine or if = that's=20 even a possibility. From where I stand right now I'm just trying to = balance my=20 choices. Which come down to 20B or Renisis. I would like to be able to = get=20 275-300 ponies continuously so that pretty much op's out the Renisis, = unless a=20 person can turbo it? I'm not totally excited about the extra weight = [w/ the=20 20B] but sometimes that's the price to pay. I'm wondering if some of = you=20 flying rotary people can tell me your personal rpm red lines for your = a/c. I'm=20 wondering if anyone has ever taken the time to graphically extrapolate = the=20 life of the apex seals vs. rpm. [I'm sure its not a linear graph] Can = a guy go=20 and do the nesc. engine upgrades to enable it to run 7500 = continuously? Would=20 the TBO go from 1500 hrs to 500? or.. or..or..? I know some of these = questions=20 are just kinda .. out there.. and there is no defined answer but I'd = like to=20 hear your opinions. I wouldn't feel bad if I knew that w/ the Renisis = engine I=20 could run it turbo'd at 7500-8000 rpm and know that as long as I = did the=20 apex seals[or whatever time limited part] every 500 hrs I = was ok.=20 I'm sure some of the racing crowd has had some experience is this = regard,=20 slightly different use's but.. 
 
I'm also sure most of you are shaking = your head=20 going... this nut case............   ;-)
 
Thanks again for the = help
 
Jarrett
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed Anderson
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, = 2003 7:30=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Renisis

Jarrett,
 
    I'll take a stab = at your=20 questions.  First, the HP rating of the Renesis is in a bit of=20 flux.  It was orginally listed as approx 250HP at somewhere = around 9000=20 rpm.  However, once folks got their hands on some and put the = on dynos,=20 it became apparently that the engine did not produce 250HP at least = in its=20 stock state.  The latest figure I recall was in the vicinity of = 230 HP=20 - still not bad.  However, if you do a search on the web on = Renesis you=20 may find some more recent figures.
 
I don't think you will find any = maximum=20 continous ratings for any of the rotaries.  Clearly the higher = RPM you=20 run the engine the more stress and wear.   I personally = have no=20 quams about running the older 13B at 6000 rpm the entire = flight,=20 although I normally fly it between 5200-5800 due to the lower fuel=20 burn.
 
The literature indicates that the = Renesis gets=20 apporx 20% better fuel economy - thats the good news, the bad knews = is I=20 understand that is only gain occurs only at the lower rpms and = that at=20 the rpms we would normally run it at - the 20% gain decreases=20 considerably.   No free = lunch - you=20 want power, you burn fuel.
 
Tracy's 2.85:1 and EC2 EFI should = work with no=20 problem. The weight of the engine might be a few pounds less = than a 13B=20 but nothing significant.  The rotors are a pound lighter = each and=20 so the counterweights are probably lighter as well, so maybe a 5 = -10lb=20 reduction in weight over the 13B block - nothing significant in = weight=20 savings  like aluminum side housing would provide.  I = think it=20 uses direction ignition (one coil per plug) so that might save a few = pounds=20 over the heavy 13B ignition system. 
 
My personal opinion is that you can = probably=20 gain the same power out of a 13B if you have the rotors lightened, = heavy=20 duty bearings/harden gears and the entire rotating assembly = dynamically=20 balanced so you can wind to higher rpms.  Would also need the = right=20 induction and exhaust system.  I mean the racing guys can get = over 250=20 HP with the NA 13B - however, their reliability might be less than = you would=20 entertain for an aircraft application.
 
Lynn could probably address what = you can get=20 out af a 13B better than anybody on the list
 
Lynn??
 
JJJ here are a couple of URLs on the Renesis that might = help
 
http://www.rx8.co.nz/Ro= tary/renesis.aspx
 
 
http://asmic.co= m/collect/rotary1999/rotary_e.pdf =20 36 page PDF on the rotary engine with some stuff on the = Renesis
 
Hope it helps
 
Ed
 
Ed Anderson
RV-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, = NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 JJ=20 JOHNSON
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Tuesday, November 18, = 2003=20 12:19 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re:=20 Renisis

Question for the list. = I've seen lots=20 of numbers thrown out there as to how much power this engine is = 'supposed'=20 to produce. I'm wondering if anyone has some concrete numbers as = to how=20 much 'continuous' hp's one can expect at what rpm [what is the max = continuous RPM recommended?]and at what specific fuel burn? Also = can this=20 engine be turbo'd? I understand from the Factory [in the Rx8] its=20 NA.  Tracy's 2.85:1 unit should work on this engine??  = As well=20 as his electronic gizmo's? How far is this engine as far as = weights=20 [installed] from the 13B?  I've got lots more but lets start = there.=20 [Or maybe someone has a web link they can pass on that helps w/ = these=20 questions] I apologize if some are these [ I suspect they probably = are]=20 redundant.
 
Thanks
Jarrett=20 = Johnson
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