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Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:26:50 -0500
From: Charlie England <ceengland@bellsouth.net>
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To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Tank problem with Mogas vs fouled spark plugs
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Bill,

Do you still have the container of sealer? If so, why not just look up 
the product's data sheet or call the manufacturer to see if it's safe 
for alcohol? IIRC, the stuff that Van has sold in recent years 
(Flamemaster brand) is alcohol safe. At least, the stuff they shipped to 
me was. A bigger concern if you used any old aviation style items like 
gascolators, is the likelihood of natural rubber gaskets in them.

In any event, I wouldn't want to leave either fuel unused in the tanks 
for a really long time. Even avgas has its limits & the lighter 
additives can evaporate over time. If you really have to do the 
calibration now, why not do your test, drain the tanks into cans & 
transfer it to your car/truck (or sell to a friend if you use avgas)? 
All it takes is a 'Mr Funnel' in the mouth of a 5gal can & removal of 
the quick drain. You can remove/replace the quick drain with only a 
little waste. You'll want the Mr Funnel if you use mogas in the future, 
anyway; not for the gas itself but for the trash that finds its way into 
and onto the transfer cans while they sit unused.

I run premium mogas in my Lyc O-320/160 that was certified for 91 octane 
avgas, & it runs *much* better on mogas.

Of course, if the mogas fire demon has bitten your behind it can make 
you feel differently. :-)

Charlie

Ed Anderson wrote:
>
> Bill, if I were faced with your quandary about what to fill the tanks 
> with, I would use 100LL - if in doubt about Mogas. The reason is that 
> spark plugs are cheap and easy to change even if they foul after 20 
> hours or so. Shouldn’t take you that long to run one tank of 100 LL 
> through your system. Then if you have decided Mogas is not a problem 
> you can always use it.
>
> If you go the Mogas and do find out later there is a problem – well, I 
> think that might be a worst outcome than a set of fouled plugs. Tracy 
> has run almost exclusively on Mogas with proseal – but don’t know how 
> much of those 1600 hours was mogas with ethanol in it. But, this Just 
> my opinion of course. I use almost exclusively 100LL and have proseal 
> in the tanks for 10+ years with no problem – well, just fouled plugs, 
> but no tank problems.
>
> Ed
>
> Ed Anderson
>
> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
>
> Matthews, NC
>
> eanderson@carolina.rr.com
>
> http://www.andersonee.com <http://www.andersonee.com/>
>
> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW 
> <http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm>
>
> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
> *On Behalf Of *Bill Bradburry
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 13, 2008 12:33 AM
> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder
>
> Chris,
>
> My heart sank when I saw those pictures. I have been concerned about 
> my plane having the same problem. Florida has gone to all 10% ethanol 
> all over the state, so pure gas is not available. I need to fill my 
> tanks in order to calibrate the gages but the gas will be in the tanks 
> for a long time. Probably till I fly.
>
> My tanks were sealed with ProSeal and I really don’t know how 
> resistant it might be to ethanol.. Have you had any ethanol in your 
> tanks?
>
> I hate to fill the tanks with av gas because of the plug fowling 
> problems, but I would REALLY hate to be facing your problem.
>
> Bill B
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] 
> *On Behalf Of *Christopher Barber
> *Sent:* Monday, August 11, 2008 10:29 PM
> *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft
> *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder
>
> Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the day 
> I realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running 
> better each day before this fuel issue developed.
>
> As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had 
> persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the 
> fine men of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few 
> gallons on to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. 
> Also, I thought my original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. 
> They had turned color and became brittle (turns out they had not YET 
> leaked.
>
> I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very 
> hard to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and 
> since I was having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I 
> thought maybe the fuel was seeping in behind the hard point into the 
> foam to the cabin floor. Since the two hard points from the strake 
> fuel line were both put in per plans years ago (before my choice to 
> use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were installed with EZ-84/flox. 
> Since the flox around the loose hard point seemed a bit "off" I 
> decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the same time I also took 
> out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above and installed 
> Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days.
>
> I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake 
> only, I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am 
> having fuel leak though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who 
> stated I could either go into the inner skin around the stake storage 
> area or cut a hole in the top of the strake to find the leak. I chose 
> to go into the top of the strake as I thought it would be better to 
> not try to patch a leak from the outside. So, I cut a hole in the 
> strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure the leak.
>
> EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on 
> the top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. 
> Almost all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It 
> was all flaky and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the 
> sides and bottom had also fallen off.
>
> I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue 
> before. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem 
> was there too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and 
> gals, I am not a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I 
> applied the Jeffco, I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the 
> top strake Jeffco was applied at a different time/batch from the 
> sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake is a pre-built piece and is laid 
> on the strake sides/bottom in a separate step and the Jeffco is 
> applied to the top before you seal it, then you seal it with more Jeffco.
>
> I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system 
> (about 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for 
> a long while though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more 
> resistant to fuels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least 
> that was my understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good 
> (but I don't trust any of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of 
> Jeffco back when I did this part of the build. My first thought is 
> that perhaps one of the buckets was a bad batch. Donno.
>
> I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the 
> strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are 
> four compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, 
> and three on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems 
> perfect (so far). The inconsistency has me confused currently. But to 
> be honest, after dealing with this for a while and trying to be 
> philosophical about it...such as I would much rather find it now, I 
> walked away and worked on re-attaching my ailerons after balancing them.
>
> So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the 
> problem I thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when 
> the fire department came out as that leak just seem to happen. When I 
> pressure tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine.
>
> I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message 
> on a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The 
> factory asked me to post too so they could have a look and determine 
> if this may be a isolated incident (such as me missing something big) 
> OR if it could be a bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I 
> took....if they are blurry, don't worry, it is only my tears......
>
> The link to pictures is 
> http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25569&posted=1#post25569 
> <http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=25569&posted=1#post25569>
>
> All the best,
>
> Chris
>
>
>
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