X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.183] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3074557 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:15:49 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.166.183; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id u77so1742324pyb.12 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:15:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=cK6cnr6TawZaN51gBRrfQjmnDrEhai29CleBP84XiM4=; b=fqIC7jGMGAX1y63B+WHeL2CV3i4MTLaU6xnj2KLH73r0kXBrEmJgsgJVymwz+eb5++ AiGzb14D/Jp/KIpnDrlXnYyID6aurWX3kZz6+9Wy6HLQBwUGH0olsyiLRmKwGflg8LT2 fe1fg0GqOVVfdWcIpiY/xCJO/YqQWFLRPnci4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=kF2PhqK/BwHgPki8WZNEmJ6etIQUbbZfO/nOPz7bULR/ImLGmoEznroRBlRkmIWTSR hdZNUrRsnkfeDAOI2FXJb+z5SxyUbe/kRYYkps8K3QnBWX95CrGieZclzvaXXTMzfKkD sFHCPPUxSH8Id367AuvVoS0QWE8XJKsKvD4C4= Received: by 10.141.162.16 with SMTP id p16mr5220375rvo.243.1218636908990; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.178.21 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0808130715x77e3934fta87ce3f9fb8e33dc@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:15:08 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Fouled Plugs- NOT! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_79912_8555206.1218636908951" References: ------=_Part_79912_8555206.1218636908951 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Ed, I was just checking to see if you were lurking. Hope you hold the record for a long time to come. Mark On 8/13/08, Ed Anderson wrote: > > Hey, Hey! Mark. > > > > Records are made to be broken =96 so be careful, who knows when the next > pilot will break my 12 mile glide record {:>). Besides, it wasn't the > engine's fault, it wasn't even the spark plugs fault, it wasn't even Moga= s > at fault. Just to put the record straight for those who might not have > heard the story =96 the flop tube in the right wing tank fell off its fit= ting > inside the tank preventing the engine from using the last 3 =BD gallons (= can > normally use down to the last cup) and the pilot failed to take proper > corrective action (like switching tanks - because he had it all figured o= ut > that it was a plugged fuel filter =96 wrong!). > > > > > > Ed > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Wednesday, August 13, 2008 9:11 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder > > > > Bill, > > > > No, my tanks are both still virgins (no ethanol). I test each batch for > alcohol content (to quote Ronald Regan, "trust but verify"). With a 94 > gallon capacity, I have yet to refuel away from my home base. So far, Te= xas > doesn't mandate 10% ethanol in their auto fuel. If/when that happens, I > will have no choice but to switch to 100LL. Ed Anderson runs 100LL (mayb= e > that isn't such a great example; after all, Ed holds the deadstick record > for rotary-powered a/c.) ;-) Anyway, so far all is good. My tanks are > sealed with Jeffco 9700 (?), the light grey stuff that was meant for seal= ing > floors in industrial applications. My concern is at the seams where the > Jeffco doesn't cover. You only have Hysol along those seams. I've heard > horror stories of ethanol attacking the Hysol... not good! So, when the > time comes, I'll have no choice but to switch to 100LL. The only > possibility is if the state doesn't add ethanol to premium gasoline. If > that's the case, I could switch to 97UL. > > > > Mark > > > > On 8/12/08, *Bill Bradburry* wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > My tanks were sealed with ProSeal. I am concerned now that Florida has > gone to all 10% ethanol. Do you know of any problems that the alcohol mi= ght > cause with our tanks? What did you seal yours with? Have you had any > ethanol in yours yet? > > > > I need to fill my tanks in order to calibrate my gauges, but I am afraid = to > do so with the ethanol because it will be in the tanks for a long > time=85probably till I fly it out! I don't really want to use av gas eit= her > because of the plug fouling. What to do, What to do!?? > > > > I see you are up to 70 hrs now. How is everything? I haven't heard that > you had any problems at all??? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:41 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder > > Chris, > > > > Sorry to hear of the bad news. Some of the Lancair builders used the > Lancair factory wing jig during the factory builder's assist program and > ended up with a twist in their wings. It turns out that the factory jig = was > wrong (twisted). A number of them shipped their wings back to the factor= y, > pried the skins off using heat guns and putty knives and then reassembled > them using the new jig. Not a pleasant task, but they wanted it right an= d > were not willing to accept anything else. I say this just to say that > you're in good company and we're all cheering for you. Do what it takes = to > make it right. > > > > Mark > > > > On 8/12/08, *Ed Anderson* wrote: > > Gee, Chris, what kind of comment can be made about the kind of situation = =96 > sort of makes your engine problems seem pale by comparison. Only thing I > can think of is much better to find out now =96 on the ground =96 than la= ter in > the air. Not being a fiberglass guy, I can only say that I hope it is no= t > as bad as it looks. > > > > Looks like to me you are getting the right parties involved =96 hopefully= , > the fix will not be too extensive. Hope you have a better day tomorrow. > > > > Ed > > > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Christopher Barber > *Sent:* Monday, August 11, 2008 10:29 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder > > > > Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the day I > realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running bett= er > each day before this fuel issue developed. > > As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had > persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine = men > of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on = to > the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my > original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned color > and became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked. > > I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard t= o > reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was > having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the f= uel > was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Si= nce > the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plans > years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were > installed with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point see= med > a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the same time = I > also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above and > installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days. > > I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only, I > still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel leak > though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could eith= er > go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in the > top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the str= ake > as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the outsi= de. > So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure the le= ak. > > EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on the > top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost = all > the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky an= d > not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had also > fallen off. > > I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue before= . > They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was there > too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not = a > complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the Jeffco,= I > mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was appli= ed > at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake = is > a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate st= ep > and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you seal it > with more Jeffco. > > I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (about = 60 > total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long while > though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to fu= els > like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my > understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't tru= st > any of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did > this part of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the bucke= ts > was a bad batch. Donno. > > I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the > strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are fou= r > compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and thr= ee > on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). T= he > inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing > with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I > would much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching m= y > ailerons after balancing them. > > > > So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the problem= I > thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when the fire > department came out as that leak just seem to happen. When I pressure > tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine. > > I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on a > few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory aske= d > me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a > isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a > bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are blur= ry, > don't worry, it is only my tears...... > > > > The link to pictures is > http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D25569&posted=3D1#post2= 5569 > > All the best, > > Chris > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > ------=_Part_79912_8555206.1218636908951 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Ed,
 
I was just checking to see if you were lurking.  Hope you hold th= e record for a long time to come. 
 
Mark


 
On 8/13/08, = Ed Anderson <eanderson@= carolina.rr.com> wrote:

Hey, Hey! Mark. 

 

 Records are made to be broken= =96 so be careful, who knows when the next pilot will break my 12 mile gli= de record {:>).    Besides, it wasn't the engine's fault,= it wasn't even the spark plugs fault, it wasn't even Mogas at fault. =  Just to put the record straight for those who might not have heard t= he story =96 the flop tube in the right wing tank fell off its fitting insi= de the tank preventing the engine from using the last 3 =BD gallons (can no= rmally use down to the last cup) and the pilot failed to take proper correc= tive action (like switching tanks - because he had it all figured out that = it was a plugged fuel  filter =96 wrong!). 

 

 

Ed

 

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Wednesday, August 13,= 2008 9:11 AM
To: Rotary= motors in aircraft
Subject:= [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder<= /p>

On 8/12/08, Bill Bradburry <bbradburry@bellsout= h.net> wrote:

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2= 008 9:41 AM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder

Ed Anderson &= lt;eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Monday, August 11, 20= 08 10:29 PM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder

Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes = the day I realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was runn= ing better each day before this fuel issue developed.

As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had = persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine me= n of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on = to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my o= riginal clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned color an= d became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked.

I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard= to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was = having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the fue= l was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Si= nce the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plan= s years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were in= stalled with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point seemed = a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the sa= me time I also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above = and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days= .

I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only,= I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel lea= k though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could eith= er go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in th= e top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the str= ake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the out= side. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure th= e leak.

EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on th= e top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost = all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky = and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had al= so fallen off.

I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue befo= re. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was ther= e too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not = a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the Jeffco,= I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was appl= ied at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strak= e is a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate= step and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you sea= l it with more Jeffco.

I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (abou= t 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long whi= le though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to f= uels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my underst= anding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't trust an= y of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did this= part of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the buckets was= a bad batch. Donno.

I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the = strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are four = compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and three= on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). Th= e inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing = with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I w= ould much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching my a= ilerons after balancing them.

So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been t= he problem I thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when t= he fire department came out as that leak just seem to happen.  When I = pressure tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine.

I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on= a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory ask= ed me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a = isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a bi= gger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are blurry, = don't worry, it is only my tears......

http://www.eset.com<= /p>