X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rv-out-0506.google.com ([209.85.198.236] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3074463 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:11:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.198.236; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id f6so2925455rvb.7 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:10:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=15JdVZe+FFSvsD6zYWTNYPMgBy2drbgBES03sMI4RjM=; b=KRBqDH0D8C6Mm5CahN086ryf8QzmTn+kZF8jWESswHFKglWp8VHs55S18kV4HxRulq xHFFBO+cu/eXdbzT7as06KyhWhVzHqi7Z4x4lxHlpPev6UDDg8drU7bmo9OFK7+c4o+A HP+/d6qjpb/HKfpKwwuZuRcizatVVumX1bCWg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=l5coNpEdV539bNEaDlsp2V4hpPU3MAbZGm9XLbcMSYUUJVWHQUb0IwwWWFJPDBnrUD ZslM5DYNFjfLI/tTUy9Du4lJZqXrDMRP+5+hQCfRMe6eNCFSxMmHmczgAaBLq9ATV/sf AW3Eezg/wis0uqt2G1QYRIQUgSm/cCJP47qcc= Received: by 10.141.89.13 with SMTP id r13mr5160879rvl.177.1218633047152; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.178.21 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 06:10:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0808130610q6fa8ffabk16ff53510919847f@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 08:10:47 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_79173_8483419.1218633047141" References: ------=_Part_79173_8483419.1218633047141 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Bill, No, my tanks are both still virgins (no ethanol). I test each batch for alcohol content (to quote Ronald Regan, "trust but verify"). With a 94 gallon capacity, I have yet to refuel away from my home base. So far, Texa= s doesn't mandate 10% ethanol in their auto fuel. If/when that happens, I will have no choice but to switch to 100LL. Ed Anderson runs 100LL (maybe that isn't such a great example; after all, Ed holds the deadstick record for rotary-powered a/c.) ;-) Anyway, so far all is good. My tanks are sealed with Jeffco 9700 (?), the light grey stuff that was meant for sealin= g floors in industrial applications. My concern is at the seams where the Jeffco doesn't cover. You only have Hysol along those seams. I've heard horror stories of ethanol attacking the Hysol... not good! So, when the time comes, I'll have no choice but to switch to 100LL. The only possibility is if the state doesn't add ethanol to premium gasoline. If that's the case, I could switch to 97UL. Mark On 8/12/08, Bill Bradburry wrote: > > Hi Mark, > > > > My tanks were sealed with ProSeal. I am concerned now that Florida has > gone to all 10% ethanol. Do you know of any problems that the alcohol mi= ght > cause with our tanks? What did you seal yours with? Have you had any > ethanol in yours yet? > > > > I need to fill my tanks in order to calibrate my gauges, but I am afraid = to > do so with the ethanol because it will be in the tanks for a long > time=85probably till I fly it out! I don't really want to use av gas eit= her > because of the plug fouling. What to do, What to do!?? > > > > I see you are up to 70 hrs now. How is everything? I haven't heard that > you had any problems at all??? > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:41 AM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder > > Chris, > > > > Sorry to hear of the bad news. Some of the Lancair builders used the > Lancair factory wing jig during the factory builder's assist program and > ended up with a twist in their wings. It turns out that the factory jig = was > wrong (twisted). A number of them shipped their wings back to the factor= y, > pried the skins off using heat guns and putty knives and then reassembled > them using the new jig. Not a pleasant task, but they wanted it right an= d > were not willing to accept anything else. I say this just to say that > you're in good company and we're all cheering for you. Do what it takes = to > make it right. > > > > Mark > > > > On 8/12/08, *Ed Anderson* wrote: > > Gee, Chris, what kind of comment can be made about the kind of situation = =96 > sort of makes your engine problems seem pale by comparison. Only thing I > can think of is much better to find out now =96 on the ground =96 than la= ter in > the air. Not being a fiberglass guy, I can only say that I hope it is no= t > as bad as it looks. > > > > Looks like to me you are getting the right parties involved =96 hopefully= , > the fix will not be too extensive. Hope you have a better day tomorrow. > > > > Ed > > > > > > Ed Anderson > > Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered > > Matthews, NC > > eanderson@carolina.rr.com > > http://www.andersonee.com > > http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW > > http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Christopher Barber > *Sent:* Monday, August 11, 2008 10:29 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder > > > > Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the day I > realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running bett= er > each day before this fuel issue developed. > > As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had > persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine = men > of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on = to > the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my > original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned color > and became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked. > > I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard t= o > reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was > having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the f= uel > was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Si= nce > the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plans > years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were > installed with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point see= med > a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the same time = I > also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above and > installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days. > > I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only, I > still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel leak > though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could eith= er > go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in the > top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the str= ake > as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the outsi= de. > So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure the le= ak. > > EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on the > top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost = all > the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky an= d > not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had also > fallen off. > > I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue before= . > They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was there > too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not = a > complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the Jeffco,= I > mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was appli= ed > at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake = is > a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate st= ep > and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you seal it > with more Jeffco. > > I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (about = 60 > total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long while > though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to fu= els > like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my > understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't tru= st > any of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did > this part of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the bucke= ts > was a bad batch. Donno. > > I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the > strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are fou= r > compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and thr= ee > on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). T= he > inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing > with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I > would much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching m= y > ailerons after balancing them. > > > > So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the problem= I > thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when the fire > department came out as that leak just seem to happen. When I pressure > tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine. > > I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on a > few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory aske= d > me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a > isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a > bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are blur= ry, > don't worry, it is only my tears...... > > > > The link to pictures is > http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D25569&posted=3D1#post2= 5569 > > All the best, > > Chris > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 3267 (20080714) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > ------=_Part_79173_8483419.1218633047141 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Bill,
 
No, my tanks are both still virgins (no ethanol).  I test ea= ch batch for alcohol content (to quote Ronald Regan, "trust but verify= ").  With a 94 gallon capacity, I have yet to refuel aw= ay from my home base.  So far, Texas doesn't mandate 10% ethanol i= n their auto fuel.  If/when that happens, I will have no choice but to= switch to 100LL.  Ed Anderson runs 100LL (maybe that isn't such a= great example; after all, Ed holds the deadstick record for rotary-powered= a/c.)  ;-)  Anyway, so far all is good.  My tanks are seale= d with Jeffco 9700 (?), the light grey stuff that was meant for sealing flo= ors in industrial applications.  My concern is at the seams where the = Jeffco doesn't cover.  You only have Hysol along those seams. = ; I've heard horror stories of ethanol attacking the Hysol... not good!=   So, when the time comes, I'll have no choice but to switch to 10= 0LL.  The only possibility is if the state doesn't add ethanol to = premium gasoline.  If that's the case, I could switch to 97UL= .
 
Mark

 
On 8/12/08, = Bill Bradburry <bbradbur= ry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2= 008 9:41 AM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder

On 8/12/08, Ed Anderson= <eanderson@carolina.= rr.com> wrote:

Gee, Chris, what kind of comment ca= n be made about the kind of situation =96 sort of makes your engine problem= s seem pale by comparison.  Only thing I can think of is much better t= o find out now =96 on the ground =96 than later in the air.  Not being= a fiberglass guy, I can only say that I hope it is not as bad as it looks.=  

Looks like to me you are getting th= e right parties involved =96 hopefully, the fix will not be too extensive.&= nbsp; Hope you have a better day tomorrow.

Ed

Ed Anderson

Rv-6A N494BW Rotary P= owered

Matthews, NC

eanderson@carolina.rr.com

http://www.andersonee.com

http://members.cox.net/rogers= da/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW

http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

From: Rota= ry motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Monday, August 11, 20= 08 10:29 PM
To: Rotary m= otors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder

Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes = the day I realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was runn= ing better each day before this fuel issue developed.

As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had = persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine me= n of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few gallons on = to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I thought my o= riginal clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned color an= d became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked.

I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard= to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was = having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the fue= l was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the cabin floor. Si= nce the two hard points from the strake fuel line were both put in per plan= s years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were in= stalled with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around the loose hard point seemed = a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them with Jeffco. At the sa= me time I also took out the factory fuel elbow fittings as mentioned above = and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this over the last few days= .

I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake only,= I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having fuel lea= k though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I could eith= er go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut a hole in th= e top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the top of the str= ake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak from the out= side. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to find/cure th= e leak.

EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on th= e top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. Almost = all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was all flaky = and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and bottom had al= so fallen off.

I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue befo= re. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem was ther= e too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and gals, I am not = a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I applied the Jeffco,= I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top strake Jeffco was appl= ied at a different time/batch from the sides/bottom. The Velocity top strak= e is a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake sides/bottom in a separate= step and the Jeffco is applied to the top before you seal it, then you sea= l it with more Jeffco.

I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (abou= t 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long whi= le though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more resistant to f= uels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least that was my underst= anding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good (but I don't trust an= y of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of Jeffco back when I did this= part of the build. My first thought is that perhaps one of the buckets was= a bad batch. Donno.

I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the = strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are four = compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and three= on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). Th= e inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing = with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about it...such as I w= ould much rather find it now, I walked away and worked on re-attaching my a= ilerons after balancing them.

So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been t= he problem I thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when t= he fire department came out as that leak just seem to happen.  When I = pressure tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine.

I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message on= a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The factory ask= ed me to post too so they could have a look and determine if this may be a = isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it could be a bi= gger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they are blurry, = don't worry, it is only my tears......

http://www.eset.com<= /p>