X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.24] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.6) with ESMTP id 3074146 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:56:24 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.62.24; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.62.60]) by QMTA02.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 1UyL1a00w1HzFnQ52hvlWf; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:55:45 +0000 Received: from osd1 ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA14.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 1hvk1a0030dkeQQ3ahvkAa; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:55:45 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=XprnSSOPVI0A:10 a=ZEmJLAnAMNMA:10 a=Ya_0tsOnAAAA:8 a=2lNsmw8nrtmCTcT1Tj4A:9 a=gVQoXq_VlEnr2QCVcVoA:7 a=0kjAACv4Dn_ZXcxQXUFn0MGydgwA:4 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=gi0PWCVxevcA:10 a=SSmOFEACAAAA:8 a=YrLQVoJhd3FIovOG9GIA:9 a=D4E3MCZfAPqwwIiSUQMA:7 a=ktrA9qpc5JSzvwjQHl9w3txvu3YA:4 a=WD2S8eiFAUIA:10 a=V9aB5C61OLQA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <11C03FD0A9384E4FABCF68C193E85FEE@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:01:17 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_002B_01C8FCCF.5391E800" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5579 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C8FCCF.5391E800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think everyone needs to contact Jeffco and find out what they know = about ethanol etc. If there is a problem, they need to be coming out = with it....my tanks in my Lancair are sealed with this stuff, and if = there is a problem, I want to know about it. Not going to pussyfoot = around the issue. Greg Ward Lancair 20B N178RG in progress ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bill Bradburry=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder Chris,=20 My heart sank when I saw those pictures. I have been concerned about = my plane having the same problem. Florida has gone to all 10% ethanol = all over the state, so pure gas is not available. I need to fill my = tanks in order to calibrate the gages but the gas will be in the tanks = for a long time. Probably till I fly. =20 My tanks were sealed with ProSeal and I really don't know how = resistant it might be to ethanol.. Have you had any ethanol in your = tanks?=20 =20 I hate to fill the tanks with av gas because of the plug fowling = problems, but I would REALLY hate to be facing your problem. =20 Bill B =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Christopher Barber Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 10:29 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Jeffco Problem...worst day as a builder Well, this was the worst builder day I have had. That includes the day = I realized I had to build a new rotary engine, which, btw, was running = better each day before this fuel issue developed. As the collective from the various list I am on may recall, I have had = persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit from the fine = men of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few = gallons on to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, = I thought my original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They = had turned color and became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked. I tried sucking new Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very = hard to reach area behind the spar. I found a loose hard point and since = I was having some fuel seep through the floor of my cabin I thought = maybe the fuel was seeping in behind the hard point into the foam to the = cabin floor. Since the two hard points from the strake fuel line were = both put in per plans years ago (before my choice to use a rotary, thus = auto fuel) they were installed with EZ-84/flox. Since the flox around = the loose hard point seemed a bit "off" I decided to redo both of them = with Jeffco. At the same time I also took out the factory fuel elbow = fittings as mentioned above and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did = this over the last few days.=20 I thought all was well, but when I added fuel to the right strake = only, I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. So, I am having = fuel leak though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who stated I = could either go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or cut = a hole in the top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the = top of the strake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a = leak from the outside. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to = try to find/cure the leak. EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake and the Jeffco on = the top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. OMG!!!!. = Almost all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen off. It was = all flaky and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the sides and = bottom had also fallen off. I called Velocity, Inc and they said they had never had this issue = before. They suggested I look in the other stake to see if the problem = was there too. We discussed when I applied it and how. Now guys and = gals, I am not a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes before I = applied the Jeffco, I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the top = strake Jeffco was applied at a different time/batch from the = sides/bottom. The Velocity top strake is a pre-built piece and is laid = on the strake sides/bottom in a separate step and the Jeffco is applied = to the top before you seal it, then you seal it with more Jeffco. I have never had more than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system = (about 60 total capacity). I have had the fuel sit in the strakes for a = long while though. I used the Jeffco since it is supposed to be more = resistant to fuels like diesel and auto, even with ethanol...at least = that was my understanding. Some ares of the strakes seem pretty good = (but I don't trust any of it now). I did get TWO, one gallon kits of = Jeffco back when I did this part of the build. My first thought is that = perhaps one of the buckets was a bad batch. Donno. I did cut into the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the = strake looks good, but I do have some flaking on the sides. There are = four compartments in each strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, = and three on the pilot side so far. One on the pilot side seems perfect = (so far). The inconsistency has me confused currently. But to be honest, = after dealing with this for a while and trying to be philosophical about = it...such as I would much rather find it now, I walked away and worked = on re-attaching my ailerons after balancing them.=20 =20 So, it seems many of those other fuel issue may have not been the = problem I thought they were....this does seem to be the cause for when = the fire department came out as that leak just seem to happen. When I = pressure tested this system a few years back, all seemed fine. I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am posting this message = on a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders site. The = factory asked me to post too so they could have a look and determine if = this may be a isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if = it could be a bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I = took....if they are blurry, don't worry, it is only my tears...... =20 The link to pictures is = http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D25569&posted=3D1#post2= 5569 All the best, Chris ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C8FCCF.5391E800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think everyone needs to contact Jeffco and = find out=20 what they know about ethanol etc.  If there is a problem, they need = to be=20 coming out with it....my tanks in my Lancair are sealed with this stuff, = and if=20 there is a problem, I want to know about it.  Not going to = pussyfoot around=20 the issue.
Greg Ward
Lancair 20B N178RG in = progress
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Bill=20 Bradburry
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 = 9:33=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Jeffco = Problem...worst day as a builder

Chris,

My heart sank when I saw those = pictures.   I=20 have been concerned about my plane having the same problem.  = Florida has = gone to all=20 10% ethanol all over the state, so pure gas is not available.  I = need to=20 fill my tanks in order to calibrate the gages but the gas will be in = the tanks=20 for a long time.  Probably till I fly. =20

My tanks were sealed with ProSeal and I = really don=92t=20 know how resistant it might be to ethanol..  Have you had any = ethanol in=20 your tanks? 

 

I hate to fill the tanks with av gas because = of =20 the plug fowling problems, but I would REALLY hate to be facing your=20 problem.

 

Bill B

 

From:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On=20 Behalf Of Christopher Barber
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 = 10:29=20 PM
To: = Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Jeffco=20 Problem...worst day as a builder

Well, this was the worst = builder=20 day I have had. That includes the day I realized I had to build a new = rotary=20 engine, which, btw, was running better each day before this fuel issue = developed.

As the collective from the various list I am on may = recall,=20 I have had persistent fuel leak issues. A few weeks ago I had a visit = from the=20 fine men of the Ellington/JSC/NASA fire department when I leaked a few = gallons=20 on to the hangar floor while I was at home sleeping late. Also, I = thought my=20 original clear factory tubes failed due to ethanol. They had turned = color and=20 became brittle (turns out they had not YET leaked.

I tried = sucking new=20 Jeffco into where I thought the leak was (very hard to reach area = behind the=20 spar. I found a loose hard point and since I was having some fuel seep = through=20 the floor of my cabin I thought maybe the fuel was seeping in behind = the hard=20 point into the foam to the cabin floor. Since the two hard points from = the=20 strake fuel line were both put in per plans years ago (before my = choice to use=20 a rotary, thus auto fuel) they were installed with EZ-84/flox. Since = the flox=20 around the loose hard point seemed a bit "off" I decided to redo both = of them=20 with Jeffco. At the same time I also took out the factory fuel elbow = fittings=20 as mentioned above and installed Vance Atkinson's gages. I did this = over the=20 last few days.

I thought all was well, but when I added fuel = to the=20 right strake only, I still had fuel seeping through the cabin floor. = So, I am=20 having fuel leak though the inner foam. I spoke with Velocity, Inc who = stated=20 I could either go into the inner skin around the stake storage area or = cut a=20 hole in the top of the strake to find the leak. I chose to go into the = top of=20 the strake as I thought it would be better to not try to patch a leak = from the=20 outside. So, I cut a hole in the strake to apply Jeffco to try to = find/cure=20 the leak.

EEEEEEAAAAAKKKKK. I opened up the top right strake = and the=20 Jeffco on the top of the strake was sitting in the bottom of the tank. = OMG!!!!. Almost all the Jeffco from the top of the strake had fallen = off. It=20 was all flaky and not adhering. Also, a number of places from the = sides and=20 bottom had also fallen off.

I called Velocity, Inc and they = said they=20 had never had this issue before. They suggested I look in the other = stake to=20 see if the problem was there too. We discussed when I applied it and = how. Now=20 guys and gals, I am not a complete incompetent. I know I sanded stakes = before=20 I applied the Jeffco, I mixed it well and per instructions. Also, the = top=20 strake Jeffco was applied at a different time/batch from the = sides/bottom. The=20 Velocity top strake is a pre-built piece and is laid on the strake=20 sides/bottom in a separate step and the Jeffco is applied to the top = before=20 you seal it, then you seal it with more Jeffco.

I have never = had more=20 than about 20 gallons of fuel in the system (about 60 total capacity). = I have=20 had the fuel sit in the strakes for a long while though. I used the = Jeffco=20 since it is supposed to be more resistant to fuels like diesel and = auto, even=20 with ethanol...at least that was my understanding. Some ares of the = strakes=20 seem pretty good (but I don't trust any of it now). I did get TWO, one = gallon=20 kits of Jeffco back when I did this part of the build. My first = thought is=20 that perhaps one of the buckets was a bad batch. Donno.

I did = cut into=20 the pilot strake too. It was not as bad. The top of the strake looks = good, but=20 I do have some flaking on the sides. There are four compartments in = each=20 strake. I cut into one on the co-pilot side, and three on the pilot = side so=20 far. One on the pilot side seems perfect (so far). The inconsistency = has me=20 confused currently. But to be honest, after dealing with this for a = while and=20 trying to be philosophical about it...such as I would much rather find = it now,=20 I walked away and worked on re-attaching my ailerons after balancing = them.=20

 

So, it seems many of = those other=20 fuel issue may have not been the problem I thought they were....this = does seem=20 to be the cause for when the fire department came out as that leak = just seem=20 to happen.  When I pressure tested this system a few years back, = all=20 seemed fine.

I am posting the pix on the Canardzone but I am = posting=20 this message on a few sites like FlyRotary and the Velocity Builders = site. The=20 factory asked me to post too so they could have a look and determine = if this=20 may be a isolated incident (such as me missing something big) OR if it = could=20 be a bigger problem. Well, here are some of the pix I took....if they = are=20 blurry, don't worry, it is only my=20 tears......

 

The link to pictures is = http://www.canardzone.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3D2556= 9&posted=3D1#post25569

All=20 the=20 best,

Chris

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