X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.249] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.3) with ESMTP id 2937109 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 24 May 2008 14:42:50 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.249; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b38so389680ana.81 for ; Sat, 24 May 2008 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=8TqoNAIrQPEa2QcbCRL94C+UUxuk1kBO2h4GroB/rjM=; b=p77cp4+4mUDbjyCi+sYxmpi6h3rqpyPMuY4ASd26kuU2XirxVWX4qi1FhLOfOqG5J1Q4RQ7BWpDBUqaaLcN0rXO7tLJmfnod9xkprOtXtp4l6nBIoDxHS9fzsYok49YlYt+84+rVhTjJU3IpxAqES2ncJkk9MfVoOndroLCtmbE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=iWsf7tnCIyJP4Gl0mXLDNAW3/gNBNn4HSbM0Tx3rbtjZcXJ/AZKsWe/P4O251GG8iQoLd7tf3QPX743UaR0/ukL2v0eR6Jvsq8DJ3Hvv8B9TarVYNvZj9k9GSHateOHG6LqBAyz8gR40yiTwi4Kfe9LHysWlG6//ZS75dUn4Fu0= Received: by 10.100.194.5 with SMTP id r5mr4173805anf.146.1211654530385; Sat, 24 May 2008 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.8.11 with HTTP; Sat, 24 May 2008 11:42:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0805241142o6a923a8i64213bb1fe619b22@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 24 May 2008 14:42:10 -0400 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filtering Problem In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_22931_8489213.1211654530371" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 813719c0cae624d2 ------=_Part_22931_8489213.1211654530371 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Kelly came up with my first thought (pump debris) and this is related to m= y second thought. EFI fuel systems should always be designed with avoiding running the pumps dry whenever possible. They can have a life time measure= d in less than a minute when dry. NEVER run a tank dry with EFI pumps. Always make it as easy as possible for the pumps to draw fuel from tank. Mount them at or below fuel level in tank, use low restriction filter befor= e the pump. I also avoid a boost pump in the line to EFI pumps because they are a significant restriction when off and can cause cavitation and pump wear. Tracy Crook On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Bill Bradburry wrote: > The pressure regulator is on the firewall just after the secondary fuel > rail. Connected to the rail by about 2 feet of -6 SS braided hose. > > At the bottom of this msg, I tried to trace out the fuel system in order = of > flow. The size is -8 from the Gascolator to the pumps, (about 1 foot), t= hen > -6 the rest of the way to the regulator. > > Bob has a point about the size of the filter. The filter media on the on= es > I have are only about 7/8 inch or so in diameter, so they could get plugg= ed > rapidly if there was some component failure. I am not certain that I wou= ld > only want to go with one though after this has happened. I would have to > redesign the system, though. There is no room for them in the present > layout. > > > > Bill B > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Saturday, May 24, 2008 7:45 AM > > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filtering Problem > > Bill, > > Where is the pressure regulator located in the system? (A picture/sketch > would sure be nice) > > Mark > > On Fri, May 23, 2008 at 11:26 PM, Bob White wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > When I first installed my system I had two of the small inline filters > which I think were similar to the ones you are using. Somewhere along > the way, Buly mentioned a different filter. It's about the same size > as an oil filter. Summit Racing P/N PRM-81794. It will hold many > times more contaminants than the small filters. I felt comfortable > using one filter for both pumps. If you have the room, you might > consider it. No new ideas on where the contamination is coming from. > > Bob W. > > > On Fri, 23 May 2008 22:06:39 -0400 > > "Bill Bradburry" wrote: > > > Kelly, > > > > The only pressure that I have available is driven by the fuel regulator= . > It > > is set at 36 # at sea level pressure. It should maintain that pressure > when > > the engine is running WOT. It would be less at idle. I think 30. Whe= n > I > > turn the secondary pump on, the pressure goes up 2-3 lbs. > > > > Pressure on both sides of the filters would give an early warning of th= is > > problem, but I have not heard that anyone has installed that type of > > instrumentation. > > > > One thing that has come of this problem is that I have realized that I > have > > to way to turn the primary pump off since it is on the same switch as t= he > > EC-2 power. I need to correct this as well. > > > > > > > > Bill B > > > > _____ > > > > From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On > > Behalf Of Kelly Troyer > > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 8:48 PM > > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filtering Problem > > > > Bill, > > > > What is the fuel pressure on the primary pump compared to the > secondary > > > > pump ??.........These are rotary vane pumps (I do not know the > composition > > > > of the vanes) and will gradually wear........They use the fuel to both > cool > > and > > > > lubricate their bearings and vanes.........If run dry for any reason th= ey > > will self destruct very rapidly and could produce the black sludge you > are > > seeing......... > > > > > > > > -- > > Kelly Troyer > > "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine > > "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2 > > "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- Original message from "Bill Bradburry" > > : -------------- > > > > > I could use a little help on this problem. I apologize for the length= . > > > > > > > > My engine recently started to show signs of fuel starvation. Cutting ou= t > > above about 3K rpm. It would just seem to go from 3K to idle. I was > > running on my primary fuel pump, so I turned on the secondary and the > engine > > would start to run normally. (Not like gangbusters, but NORMALLY. My > max > > static rpm has been about 52-5300 rpm and I have felt that it was not > > getting enough fuel to run up to my goal of 6K static) > > > > > > > > I decided that I had a filter plugged, and fearing the gasohol that th= ey > > are now selling all over Florida, I opened up my Gascolator. It was ok= . > I > > found a couple of wisps of white fibers. Could be fiberglass dust, cou= ld > be > > spider webs, something like that. I don't think that I have had any > > gasohol in the plane, but it is probably possible. But the Gascolator > was > > fine. > > > > > > > > I then opened up the JEGS inline filter on the primary pump and the > element > > was covered with a black sludge. It seemed to be almost completely > blocked. > > This stuff looked like maybe it could have come from the inside of the = SS > > braided hose. > > > > > > > > I checked the secondary pumps filter and it was fine. I have not used > this > > secondary pump except on rare occasions to check for pressure changes, > > leaks, etc.. > > > > > > > > But for that matter, I have only run three 5 gal cans of gas in the pla= ne > > totally. One 5 gal can in each wing, then another in the right side, a= nd > I > > am now pulling out of the left tank which has the fourth 5 gal in it. > > > > > > > > So, like I said, I at first thought that it was a rubber residue from > when I > > installed the hose ends on the Aeroquip hoses because it sort of looked > like > > that. Then as I drove home, I remembered that there was none of this > stuff > > in the Gascolator. (I think that some should have made it there as the= re > is > > one -8 hose in front of the Gascolator) There is only about a foot of = -8 > > hose in front of the fuel pumps after the Gascolator, so now I am > thinking > > that maybe it came from the fuel pump. > > > > > > > > Is there anything inside the pump that could cause a black sludge if it > > started to crap out? What would I look for to check if the pump is out > or > > going out. Has anyone else had any similar problem? I recently heard = a > > squealing sound from the area of the pumps, but at the time I thought > that > > it was bubbles going through the pump. I was close to empty on the rig= ht > > tank and thought that it was sucking air. I switched tanks and the sou= nd > > went away. > > > > > > > > I have not yet checked my injectors. Two reasons: I have no idea of > how > > to do it and would not know what to look for. Is the 40 micron screen > fine > > enough to keep anything from getting plugged up in the injectors? If > not, > > what do I look for, and where? > > > > > > > > I would greatly appreciate some input as to your thoughts on this. How > > would you proceed? > > > > > > > > My fuel system goes: Finger strainer in tank, =BD inch aluminum line to > Andair > > dual valve (switches both supply and return to same tank), Aeroquip -8 = SS > > braided line, boost pump, Aeroquip -8 SS braided line, Andair Gascolato= r, > > Aeroquip -8 SS braided line about one foot to splitter to two fuel pump= s, > > (these are the pumps that Tracy sells), each pump is followed by a JEGS > > billet in line fuel filter with a stainless 40 micron element. Then a > > splitter to bring them back together to Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, > primary > > injector rail, Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, secondary injector rail, > > Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator, Aeroqu= ip > -4 > > SS braided line to the valve and back to the tank. The tanks are > fiberglass > > with ProSeal. This is a Lancair Legacy, Renesis engine. > > > > > > > > Thanks for the help. > > > > > > > > Bill B > > > > > > -- > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > ------=_Part_22931_8489213.1211654530371 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Kelly came up with my first thought (pump debris)  and this is re= lated to my second thought.  EFI fuel systems should always be designe= d with avoiding running the pumps dry whenever possible.  They can hav= e a life time measured in less than a minute when dry.   NEVER ru= n a tank dry with EFI pumps.   Always make it as easy as possible= for the pumps to draw fuel from tank.   Mount them at or below f= uel level in tank, use low restriction filter before the pump.  I also= avoid a boost pump in the line to EFI pumps because they are a significant= restriction when off and can cause cavitation and pump wear.
 
Tracy Crook

On Sat, May 24, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Bill Bradburry= <bbradburry@bellsouth.net> wrote:

From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.n= et] On Behalf Of Mark S= teitle
Sent: Saturday, May 24, 200= 8 7:45 AM=20


To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subjec= t: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Filtering Problem

= Bill,

Where is the pressure regulat= or located in the system?  (A picture/sketch would sure be nice)
Mark

bob@bob-white.com> wrote:

= "Bill Bradburry" <bbradburry@bellsouth.net<= /a>> wrote:

flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
> Behalf Of Kelly Troyer
> Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 8:48 PM
&= gt; To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fuel Fil= tering Problem
>
> Bill,
>
>    What is t= he fuel pressure on the primary pump compared to the secondary
>
> pump ??.........These are rotary vane pumps (I do not know the= composition
>
> of the vanes) and will gradually wear........T= hey use the fuel to both cool
> and
>
> lubricate their b= earings and vanes.........If run dry for any reason they
> will self destruct very rapidly and could produce the black sludge you= are
> seeing.........
>
>
>
> --
> Kel= ly Troyer
> "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine
> "RW= S"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
> "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold
>
>
>
= >
>
>
> -------------- Original message from "Bil= l Bradburry"
> <bbradburry@bellsouth.net>: --------------

= >
>  I could use a little hel= p on this problem.  I apologize for the length.
>
>
>= ;
> My engine recently started to show signs of fuel starvation. Cutt= ing out
> above about 3K rpm.  It would just seem to go from 3K to idle. &n= bsp;I was
> running on my primary fuel pump, so I turned on the secon= dary and the engine
> would start to run normally.  (Not like ga= ngbusters, but NORMALLY.  My max
> static rpm has been about 52-5300 rpm and I have felt that it was not<= br>> getting enough fuel to run up to my goal of 6K static)
>
&= gt;
>
> I decided that I had a filter plugged,  and fearin= g the gasohol that they
> are now selling all over Florida, I opened up my Gascolator.  It = was ok.  I
> found a couple of wisps of white fibers.  Coul= d be fiberglass dust, could be
> spider  webs, something like th= at.  I don't think that I have had any
> gasohol in the plane, but it is probably possible.  But the Gasco= lator was
> fine.
>
>
>
> I then opened up th= e JEGS inline filter on the primary pump and the element
> was covere= d with a black sludge.  It seemed to be almost completely blocked.
> This stuff looked like maybe it could have come from the inside of the= SS
> braided hose.
>
>
>
> I checked the sec= ondary pumps filter and it was fine.  I have not used this
> sec= ondary pump except on rare occasions to check for pressure changes,
> leaks, etc..
>
>
>
> But for that matter, I ha= ve only run three 5 gal cans of gas in the plane
> totally.  One= 5 gal can in each wing, then another in the right side, and I
> am n= ow pulling out of the left tank which has the fourth 5 gal in it.
>
>
>
> So, like I said, I at first thought that it wa= s a rubber residue from when I
> installed the hose ends on the Aeroq= uip hoses because it sort of looked like
> that.  Then as I drov= e home, I remembered that there was none of this stuff
> in the Gascolator.  (I think that some should have made it there = as there is
> one -8 hose in front of the Gascolator)  There is = only about a foot of -8
> hose in front of the fuel pumps after the G= ascolator, so now I am thinking
> that maybe it came from the fuel pump.
>
>
>
>= Is there anything inside the pump that could cause a black sludge if it> started to crap out?  What would I look for to check if the pump= is out or
> going out.  Has anyone else had any similar problem?  I rece= ntly heard a
> squealing sound from the area of the pumps, but at the= time I thought that
> it was bubbles going through the pump.  I= was close to empty on the right
> tank and thought that it was sucking air.  I switched tanks and t= he sound
> went away.
>
>
>
> I have not yet = checked my injectors.  Two  reasons:  I have no idea of how<= br>> to do it and would not know what to look for.  Is the 40 micro= n screen fine
> enough to keep anything from getting plugged up in the injectors? &nbs= p;If not,
> what do I look for, and where?
>
>
>> I would greatly appreciate some input as to your thoughts on this. &n= bsp;How
> would you proceed?
>
>
>
> My fuel system goes= : Finger strainer in tank, =BD inch aluminum line to Andair
> dual va= lve (switches both supply and return to same tank), Aeroquip -8 SS
> = braided line, boost pump, Aeroquip -8 SS braided line, Andair Gascolator, > Aeroquip -8 SS braided line about one foot to splitter to two fuel pum= ps,
> (these are the pumps that Tracy sells), each pump is followed b= y a JEGS
> billet in line fuel filter with a stainless 40 micron elem= ent.  Then a
> splitter to bring them back together to Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, p= rimary
> injector rail, Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, secondary inject= or rail,
> Aeroquip -6 SS braided line, Aeromotive fuel pressure regu= lator, Aeroquip -4
> SS braided line to the valve and back to the tank.  The tanks are= fiberglass
> with ProSeal.  This is a Lancair Legacy, Renesis e= ngine.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the help.
>
>=
>
> Bill B
>
>

http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time and= holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://roblinstores.com/cables/

--
Homepage:  http://www.flyrotary.com= /
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/li= sts/flyrotary/List.html