X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [204.127.217.105] (HELO fmailhost01.isp.att.net) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.2) with ESMTP id 2893562 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 04 May 2008 22:16:44 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=204.127.217.105; envelope-from=ceengland@bellsouth.net Received: from fwebmail34.isp.att.net ([204.127.221.134]) by isp.att.net (frfwmhc05) with SMTP id <20080505021603H0500942q9e>; Mon, 5 May 2008 02:16:03 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [204.127.221.134] Received: from [71.76.202.235] by fwebmail34.isp.att.net; Mon, 05 May 2008 02:16:02 +0000 From: ceengland@bellsouth.net To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Jet A rotary approach [FlyRotary] Re: Jet-A Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 02:16:02 +0000 Message-Id: <050520080216.10552.481E6DE200061E440000293822243429029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF0B020E0409020A0A0C@att.net> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: AT&T Message Center Version 1 (Mar 10 2008) X-Authenticated-Sender: Y2VlbmdsYW5kQGJlbGxzb3V0aC5uZXQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10552_1209953762_0" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10552_1209953762_0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Farm diesel can be a LOT cheaper than any road or air fuel. I had a friend that owned a Cessna 185 & bought one of those E. European turbine powered Compair 6/7 place cabin class planes. He said that with farm diesel, it cost less per passenger mile to operate than the Cessna, because the Cessna went 155mph @15gph avgas & the turbine went about 230 @35gph farm diesel at altitude, with more seats & about 1/3 the price per gallon at that time (about 6 or 8 years ago). The math might not work the same today since diesel now costs more relative to gas. Still looks attractive, if you can install your own tank at the airport. Charlie -------------- Original message from "Tracy Crook" : -------------- Just curious, Why would someone want to do this? Is Jet-A cheaper? I haven't priced it lately. There would not be any power advantage (a power loss is noted by Mistral, using high pressure direct injection and spark ignition). There is no efficiency advantage because we can't run higher compression ratios. Is it just the novelty? Tracy On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Ed Anderson wrote: Sounds good to me, just want to see it demonstrated first, before I go chugging up to the Jet A fuel pump {:>). I will look forward to your article, Pat. Because I know this has been tried numberous times before and while there have been various research engines that ran with this configuration - my question is why did it never evolve to an operational engine. It certainly may be possible, but I really don't think our current rotary set up would do it. But here is a possible approach................................ Ok, Dave, You put the Jet A in your tank and I'll pay for a tank of it. But, first, I would check to make certain it doesn't gum up your injectors/pumps or other such problems - because my understanding is that it gets a lot more viscous at cooler temps than does gasoline. How about this approach, Dave - route the Jet A to say the primary or secondary injectors (your choice) using some temporary fuel lines from an external tank - then fire up the engine with the Mogas injectors only active. Once warmed up and running switch on the secondary injectors with the Jet A. Assuming that it continues to run (perhaps with some mixture adjustment)with both the mogas and Jet A, then switch off the primary (Mogas) injectors and see if it will continue to run. Using an external tank would ensure that you do not contaminate your tanks and plumbing. Recommend doing this on the ground {:>) Ed Perhaps the time has come? Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick Panzera To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Jet-A I love that scientific talk. Mistral is working on the JetA for fuel idea. RotaMax has done it. After they get done with their ASTM stuff to become an OEM engine for the LSA market, they'll be focusing on their R&D efforts to complete their turbocharging program. ASTM too. Then they'll get back to their original (and successful) efforts to run their engines on heavy fuels via spark ignition and could eventually end up with a flexible-fuel engine. They have also completed their propane r&d and are running in that trim for industrial applications. I'm working on an exhaustive article on them for the next issue of CONTACT! Magazine. Pat --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10552_1209953762_0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10552_1209953762_1" --NextPart_Webmail_9m3u9jl4l_10552_1209953762_1 Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Farm diesel can be a LOT cheaper than any road or air fuel. I had a friend that owned a Cessna 185 & bought one of those E. European turbine powered Compair 6/7 place cabin class planes. He said that with farm diesel, it cost less per passenger mile to operate than the Cessna, because the Cessna went 155mph @15gph avgas & the turbine went about 230 @35gph farm diesel at altitude, with more seats & about 1/3 the price per gallon at that time (about 6 or 8 years ago). The math might not work the same today since diesel now costs more relative to gas.
 
Still looks attractive, if you can install your own tank at the airport.
 
Charlie
-------------- Original message from "Tracy Crook" <tracy@rotaryaviation.com>: --------------

Just curious,
Why would someone want to do this?  Is Jet-A cheaper?  I haven't priced it lately.  There would not be any power advantage (a power loss is noted by Mistral, using high pressure direct injection and spark ignition).  There is no efficiency advantage because we can't run higher compression ratios.  Is it just the novelty?
 
Tracy

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 12:22 PM, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com> wrote:
Sounds good to me,  just want to see it demonstrated first, before I go chugging up to the Jet A fuel pump {:>). 
 
 I will look forward to your article, Pat.  Because I know this has been tried numberous times before and while there have been various research engines that ran with this configuration - my question is why did it never evolve to an operational engine.
 
It certainly may be possible, but I really don't think our current rotary set up would do it.  But here is a possible approach................................
 
Ok, Dave, You put the Jet A in your tank and I'll pay for a tank of it.  But, first, I would check to make certain it doesn't gum up your injectors/pumps or other such problems - because my understanding is that it gets a lot more viscous at cooler temps than does gasoline.
 
How about this approach, Dave  - route the Jet A to say the primary or secondary injectors (your choice) using some temporary fuel lines from an external tank -  then fire up the engine with the Mogas injectors only active.   Once warmed up and running switch on the secondary injectors with the Jet A.  Assuming that it continues to run (perhaps with some mixture adjustment)with both the mogas and Jet A, then switch off the primary (Mogas) injectors and see if it will continue to run. Using an external tank would ensure that you do not contaminate your tanks and plumbing.   Recommend doing this on the ground {:>)
 
Ed
 
 
 
Perhaps the time has come?
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 12:05 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Jet-A

I love that scientific talk.

 

Mistral is working on the JetA for fuel idea.

 

RotaMax has done it.

 

After they get done with their ASTM stuff to become an OEM engine for the LSA market,

they'll be focusing on their R&D efforts to complete their turbocharging program. ASTM too.

Then they'll get back to their original (and successful) efforts to run their engines on heavy fuels

via spark ignition and could eventually end up with a flexible-fuel engine. They have also completed

their propane r&d and are running in that trim for industrial applications.

 

I'm working on an exhaustive article on them for the next issue of CONTACT! Magazine.

 

Pat


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