X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.1) with ESMTP id 2835735 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 07 Apr 2008 10:49:18 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20080407144834.BOAG17539.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Mon, 7 Apr 2008 14:48:34 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c898be$313f4f60$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] What comes first; the chicken or the egg? Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2008 10:46:41 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C8989C.A9F6C0E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C8989C.A9F6C0E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, Kelly, if I understand your reading of the situation, is that if you = put the oil filter before the cooler and its normal flow route (through = the oil filter medium) gets plugged up by trash from the engine, then = the pressure by pass is more likely to open and the trash will flow to = the cooler. Makes sense to me, that could happen if the oil filter has = a substantial reduction in flow through its filter medium building up = pressure until the by-pass opens. Now if you put the filter after the cooler, it appears to me two things = could happen: 1. The cooler could act like a filter and stop a lot (or sufficient) = trash from reaching the oil filter and preventing the by-pass from = opening and spreading trash to your engine. Although if your engine is = already trashed, I'm not certain what this does for you except ensure = you have put trash into your cooler. 2. The cooler will flow most of the trash through to the oil filter in = which case we are in a similar situation as having the oil filter before = the cooler. Except you have again ensured the cooler will have still = have trash. So I still see no great advantage to putting the oil filter after the = cooler - but, as I said before, I would go with Lynn's experience before = my analysis {:>) Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Kelly Troyer=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 10:28 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] What comes first; the chicken or the egg? Ed, Lynn and All, The way I understood Lynn's reply was as follows........The oil cooler has more flow capacity than the oil filter (at least a single filter that most of us use).........The restriction caused by putting=20 the filter before the cooler has the potential of allowing the bypass of the filter to open (pressure differential due to the lower flow capacity of the filter) thereby allowing trash captured by the filter to flow through the cooler and on to the engine........By locating the filter after the cooler the chance of this occurring is much less because of lower flow demands of the engine bearing system.......=20 Hope this makes sense.........Is that anywhere near to what you were talking about Lynn ?? -- Kelly Troyer=20 "Dyke Delta"_13B ROTARY Engine=20 "RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2=20 "Mistral"_Backplate/Oil Manifold=20 -------------- Original message from "Ed Anderson" = : --------------=20 > Basically, my understanding is that the filter would keep any = thrash from a=20 > blown engine from entering the cooler - which as many have pointed = out is=20 > almost impossible to get clean of all possible debris. I am not = certain why=20 > this apparently can not be counted on to stop the trash, but I = will=20 > certainly defer to Lynn and those with a lot more experience in = trashing=20 > engines than I have.=20 >=20 > So its understandably that the racing crowd pushing engines into = the very=20 > high power and rpm range stand a higher probability of trashing an = engine=20 > than in aircraft application.=20 >=20 > In any case, have not trashed an engine to the point of finding = metal in the=20 > oil (yet).=20 >=20 > Ed=20 > ;=20 >=20 > ----- Original Message -----=20 > From:=20 > To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20 > Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 9:46 PM=20 > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What comes first; the chicken or the egg? = >=20 >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > I am happy that this has worked out for you. Why did you decide = to run=20 > > the filter before the cooler?=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > -------------- Original message ----------------------=20 > > From: "Ed Anderson"=20 > >> I have my oil filter before the oil goes into the cooler and = has worked=20 > >> fine=20 > >> for 400 hours.=20 > >>=20 > >> Ed=20 > >>=20 > >> Ed Anderson=20 > >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered=20 > >> Matthews, NC=20 > >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com < BR>> >> http://www.andersonee.com=20 > >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=20 > >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html=20 > >> ----- Original Message -----=20 > >> From:=20 > >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20 > >> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 8:00 PM=20 > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] What comes first; the chicken or the egg?=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> > The Mazda manual shows the oil being cooled via the oil = cooler before=20 > >> > it=20 > >> > is filtered. One would assume that you would want the oil = filtered=20 > >> > before=20 > >> > you ran it through anything. Why did they design it this way? = What=20 > >> > are=20 > >> > most doing? Are you cooling the oil before filtering or are = you=20 > >> > filtering=20 > >> > the oil before cooling? If one was to stick to the original = design and=20 > >> > utilize the original oil pressure outlet as the oil supply = feed to the=20 > >> > re-drive, it would appear that this oil supply to the = re-drive is=20 > >> > un-filtered oil although the oil is cooled. I would assume = that we=20 > >> > would=20 > >> > want filtered oil to the re-drive. I am not sure how to = tackle this=20 > >> > problem. Any and all input into this subject is greatly = appreciated.=20 > >> >=20 > >> > --=20 > >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > >> > Archive and UnSub:=20 > >> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 > >> >=20 > >>=20 > >>=20 > >> --=20 > >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > >> Archive and UnSub:=20 > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > --=20 > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > > Archive and UnSub:=20 > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 > >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C8989C.A9F6C0E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, Kelly, if I understand your reading = of the=20 situation, is that if you put the oil filter before the cooler and its = normal=20 flow route (through the oil filter medium) gets plugged up by trash = from=20 the engine, then the pressure by pass is more likely to open and the = trash will=20 flow to the cooler.  Makes sense to me, that could happen if the = oil filter=20 has a substantial reduction in flow through its filter medium building = up=20 pressure until the by-pass opens.
 
Now if you put the filter after the = cooler, it=20 appears to me two things could happen:
 
1.  The cooler could  act = like a filter=20 and stop a lot (or sufficient) trash from reaching the oil filter and = preventing=20 the by-pass from opening and spreading trash to your engine.  = Although if=20 your engine is already trashed, I'm not certain what this does for you = except=20 ensure you have put trash into your cooler.
 
2.  The cooler will flow most of = the trash=20 through to the oil filter in which case we are in a similar situation as = having=20 the oil filter before the cooler.  Except you have again ensured = the cooler=20 will have still have trash.
 
So I still see no great advantage to = putting the=20 oil filter after the cooler - but, as I said before, I would go with = Lynn's=20 experience before my analysis {:>)
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Kelly = Troyer
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2008 = 10:28=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] What comes = first;=20 the chicken or the egg?

Ed, Lynn and All,
 
      The way I understood Lynn's reply = was as=20 follows........The oil
cooler has more flow capacity than the oil filter (at least a=20 single
filter that most of us use).........The restriction caused by = putting=20
the filter before the cooler has the potential of allowing the=20 bypass
of the filter to open (pressure differential due to the lower = flow
capacity of the filter) thereby allowing trash captured by the=20 filter
to flow through the cooler and on to the engine........By = locating
the filter after the cooler the chance of this occurring is much=20 less
because of lower flow demands of the engine bearing=20 system.......
      Hope this makes = sense.........Is that=20 anywhere near to what you
were talking about Lynn ??
--
Kelly Troyer
"Dyke = Delta"_13B=20 ROTARY Engine
"RWS"_RD1C/EC2/EM2
"Mistral"_Backplate/Oil = Manifold=20



 
--------------=20 Original message from "Ed Anderson" = <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>:=20 --------------


> Basically, my understanding is that = the=20 filter would keep any thrash from a
> blown engine from = entering the=20 cooler - which as many have pointed out is
> almost = impossible to get=20 clean of all possible debris. I am not certain why
> this = apparently=20 can not be counted on to stop the trash, but I will
> = certainly defer=20 to Lynn and those with a lot more experience in trashing
> = engines=20 than I have.
>
> So its understandably that the racing = crowd=20 pushing engines into the very
> high power and rpm range = stand a=20 higher probability of trashing an engine
> than in aircraft=20 application.
>
> In any case, have not trashed an = engine to=20 the point of finding metal in the
> oil (yet).
> =
> Ed=20
> ;
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> = From:=20
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20
> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2008 = 9:46 PM=20
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: What comes first; the chicken or = the egg?=20
>
>
> >
> >
> > I am = happy that=20 this has worked out for you. Why did you decide to run
> > = the=20 filter before the cooler?
> >
> >
> > =
>=20 >
> > -------------- Original message = ----------------------=20
> > From: "Ed Anderson" =
>=20 >> I have my oil filter before the oil goes into the cooler = and has=20 worked
> >> fine
> >> for 400 hours. =
>=20 >>
> >> Ed
> >>
> >> Ed = Anderson
> >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
> = >>=20 Matthews, NC
> >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com < = BR>>=20 >> http://www.andersonee.com
> >>=20 http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
> = >>=20 http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html
> >> ----- = Original=20 Message -----
> >> From: =
>=20 >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft"=20
> >> Sent: Sunday, April = 06, 2008=20 8:00 PM
> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] What comes first; the = chicken=20 or the egg?
> >>
> >>
> >> = > The=20 Mazda manual shows the oil being cooled via the oil cooler before =
>=20 >> > it
> >> > is filtered. One would = assume that=20 you would want the oil filtered
> >> > before =
>=20 >> > you ran it through anything. Why did they design it = this way?=20 What
> >> > are
> >> > most doing? = Are you=20 cooling the oil before filtering or are you
> >> > = filtering=20
> >> > the oil before cooling? If one was to stick = to the=20 original design and
> >> > utilize the original oil = pressure=20 outlet as the oil supply feed to the
> >> > = re-drive, it=20 would appear that this oil supply to the re-drive is
> = >> >=20 un-filtered oil although the oil is cooled. I would assume that we =
>=20 >> > would
> >> > want filtered oil to the=20 re-drive. I am not sure how to tackle this
> >> > = problem.=20 Any and all input into this subject is greatly appreciated.
> = >> >
> >> > --
> >> > = Homepage:=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> >> > Archive and UnSub: =
>=20 >> > = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> = >>=20 --
> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/
> = >>=20 Archive and UnSub:
> > >=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> = >=20
> >
> > --
> > Homepage:=20 http://www.flyrotary.com/
> > Archive and UnSub:
> = >=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html
> = >=20
>
>
> --
> Homepage: = http://www.flyrotary.com/=20
> Archive and UnSub:=20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20
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