X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.248] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.1) with ESMTP id 2828499 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 23:41:21 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.248; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b2so568965ana.81 for ; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:40:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=lapysm0wBDp/5KSZO+qlxKXAKxANf2LJ/j1x6li8NLk=; b=kTiZnNpSSCLTaFZGGFH8OW13UIMkEy3ngoIuJ46wT/vsQ6RIvziJ4aeBpmfdDNp/3i2tP4npEzmaLblzIfW46yrxSAt0QLRhVYEwdU5wP/uQYnAsdkJivSsxP2evb0HfgX0GqSKUQBo3BL722TbxyW8SnuNYGa6w3XfzSyFFqlo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=M6ZofTo8IL0LYUGYKZnqSTjNAds2oLitqPP2kRNToakG/2tn+7WPdJaaZFS+GoxznR8D3ySowHAzJ4/Ogy+uZpIEoR8fT+/lglHR7PiVQNGR+b61K6UQ+64eZ7Bd/EH7cR9DG7P0x9+gvlwmgfbJjxYmPP5kfzbMGRykGqt0pfI= Received: by 10.100.190.15 with SMTP id n15mr19909151anf.107.1207107644592; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.133.10 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 20:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0804012040o46510b4jc573596e24c368bb@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:40:44 -0400 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 2-stroke oil In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14151_33315108.1207107644556" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: b0fc946a28fce0c9 ------=_Part_14151_33315108.1207107644556 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Confusing indeed! We tend to think of aircraft use as severe or heavy duty but it's not. I think that is why the ashless 2 stroke oil is the way to go. Our rotaries are much more related to outboard engine use than those highly stressed snowmobile or PWC engines. Another way to look at it: Most any 2 stroke is probably 10 times better for apex seals than any 4 stroke automotive oil. Idemitsu (Sp?) oil recommended by Mazda is probably the best if you are going to inject but premix is still far better. BTW, in a pinch, AD aircraft oil can be used i= n a pinch if you run out of 2 stroke on a cross country but NEVER use 4 stroke automotive oil as premix. Tracy On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Al Gietzen wrote: > I doubt that it matters but I'm surprised about the 'not for water > cooled engines' part. The TCW-3 rating is by the BIA (Boating Industry o= f > America). I haven't seen an air cooled boat motor in a very long time. > > > > Actually I didn't intend to imply 'not for water cooled engines'. I said > 'watercraft' and meant to say 'personal watercraft (PWC). And, also, it > seems I got confused. The TCW3 rating is a NMMA rating (National Marine > Manufacturers Association). I had read a long article I came across > http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm, and got mixed up on the > NMMA TWC3 rating and the API-TC (American Petroleum Institute) rating. (= And > if you read the article only once in its entirety, you may be able to see > why I got confused.) > > > > For PWCs the author is suggesting sticking with API-TC rating which is > less common and more expensive than oils that are TWC3 rated. And after > re-reading, my conclusion is that the TWC3 oils should be fine for a wate= r > cooled rotary. Some highlights are given below. > > > > What mix ratio are you guys using? > > > > Al > > > > "Ashless detergents are used in low temperature applications such as TCW3 > oils where the ring land temperature is held below 300 deg/f. These > detergents work well in engines where an excess of cooling capacity is > available and power valves are not used. Ashless detergents are manufactu= red > form organic nitrogen compounds (Hydrazine) instead of heavy metal > compounds; therefore, they produce no ash as they are burned away. This i= s > where the name "Ashless" comes from. Oils containing this type detergent > have a characteristic Ammonia odor. Ashless detergents were used in the > first generation of Bombardier XPS engine oil. The formulation was later > changed to a low ash type detergent because of the higher temperatures > generated by the 787 engines. > > > > Low Ash type detergent/dispersants are used in most API-TC, Jasco FC and > ISO GC certified 2-stroke oils. These oils are designed for air-cooled hi= gh > performance engines that operate under severe load/temperature conditions= . > Low Ash detergents can keep the deposits to a minimum at ring land > temperatures as high as 400 deg/f. These detergents are manufactured from > compounds of Calcium and Magnesium (heavy metals). After these compounds > (Calcium Phenate or Magnesium Phenate) do their job, they burn away, form= ing > a heavy metal salt (ash) that is swept away during the normal combustion > process. Hence, this is where the name Ash-type detergent comes from. Ash > type detergents depend on the higher combustion temperatures (787 and 951 > engines) to keep the resulting ash swept out. Therefore, the use of these > high performance oils in outboard or other mildly tuned 2-stroke engines = is > not recommended. > > > > Some manufacturers are using a combination of detergent types (Ashless an= d > Low Ash) to provide a broader range of uses for their oil. It is > important to note that oil designed to meet TCW3 specs. only (Ashless) wi= ll > not protect an engine requiring API-TC (Low Ash) type oil. The converse i= s > also true. Using a Low Ash oil in an engine designed for an Ashless type > oil only could result in fouled plugs and gummy combustion chambers. > > > > I hear a lot of complaints about the high cost of some 2-stroke engine > oils, mostly Bombardier XPS. Well, I have to agree, it isn't cheap, but > neither are any of the other API-TC oils compared to the TCW3 type oils. > Unfortunately it just costs more to manufacture API-TC oils than TCW3 oil= s. > Despite its relatively high cost, I cannot recall any Rotax engine failin= g > because of XPS oil. XPS oil was a joint development of Castrol and > Bombardier. Bombardier wanted a 'universal' high performance engine oil > that they could use in all their recreational products. That meant oil wo= uld > flow freely at =9640 deg/f and still maintain sufficient film strength at= 350 > deg/f. The first generation of XPS (1995) was formulated using Ashless > detergents; this allowed the Rave valves in the then new 787 motor to sti= ck. > The formula was later changed (1996) to a low ash detergent that eliminat= ed > the rave valve sticking problems. There have been several minor improveme= nts > in XPS since 1996. Castrol remains the only manufacturer of XPS. This is = a > proprietary blend sold only by Bombardier. There are a number of good API= -TC > type oils out there if you chose not to use XPS. If the oil you want to u= se > does not have the ATP-TC certification on the container, contact the > manufacturer. Most of them will be more than glad to provide you with inf= ormation > on their products. > > Do not use TCW3 in your SeaDoo PWC. I don't care if it's a full syntheti= c > or your brother-in-law uses it; for the reasons stated above, it will not > protect your motor when conditions get tough in your motor. > > > > > ------=_Part_14151_33315108.1207107644556 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Confusing indeed!  
We tend to think of aircraft use as severe or heavy duty but it's = not.  I think that is why the ashless 2 stroke oil is the way to go.&n= bsp; Our rotaries are much more related to outboard engine use th= an those highly stressed snowmobile or PWC engines. 
 
 Another way to look at it:  Most any 2 stroke is = probably 10 times better for apex seals than any 4 stroke automotive oil.&n= bsp; Idemitsu (Sp?) oil recommended by Mazda is probably the best if you ar= e going to inject but premix is still far better.  BTW, in a pinch, AD= aircraft oil can be used in a pinch if you run out of 2 stroke on a cross = country but NEVER use 4 stroke automotive oil as premix.
 
Tracy

On Tue, Apr 1, 2008 at 6:17 PM, Al Gietzen <<= a href=3D"mailto:ALVentures@cox.net">ALVentures@cox.net> wrote:

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">I doubt that it matters but I'm surprise= d about the 'not for water cooled engines' part.  The TCW-3 ra= ting is by the BIA (Boating Industry of America).  I haven't seen = an air cooled boat motor in a very long time.

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">  

Actually I didn't intend to imp= ly 'not for water cooled engines'.  I said 'watercraft' and meant to s= ay 'personal watercraft (PWC).  And, also, it seems I got confused.&nb= sp; The TCW3 rating is a NMMA rating (National Marine Manufacturers Associa= tion). I had read a = long article I came across http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.h= tm, and got mixed up on the NMMA TWC3 rating and the API-TC (American P= etroleum Institute) rating.  (And if you read the article only once in= its entirety, you may be able to see why I got confused.)

 

For PWCs the author is suggesti= ng sticking with API-TC rating which is less common and more expensive than= oils that are TWC3 rated. And after re-reading, my conclusion is that the = TWC3 oils should be fine for a water cooled rotary.  Some highlights a= re given below.

 

What mix ratio are you guys usi= ng?

 

Al

 

"Ashless detergen= ts are used in low temperature applications such as TCW3 oils where the rin= g land temperature is held below 300 deg/f. These detergents work well in e= ngines where an excess of cooling capacity is available and power valves ar= e not used. Ashless detergents are manufactured form organic nitrogen compo= unds (Hydrazine) instead of heavy metal compounds; therefore, they produce = no ash as they are burned away. This is where the name "Ashless" comes from= . Oils containing this type detergent have a characteristic Ammonia odor. A= shless detergents were used in the first generation of Bombardier XPS engin= e oil. The formulation was later changed to a low ash type detergent becaus= e of the higher temperatures generated by the 787 engines.  

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 


------=_Part_14151_33315108.1207107644556--