X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.1) with ESMTP id 2828255 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 01 Apr 2008 19:43:39 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20080401234258.CPWH17539.cdptpa-omta02.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Tue, 1 Apr 2008 23:42:58 +0000 Message-ID: <001901c89452$2dd768a0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: 2-stroke oil Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2008 19:43:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0016_01C89430.A693BC20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C89430.A693BC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Al, I started out using approx 1 1/2 oz per gallon, but quickly settled = back to 1 oz/gallon after finding I was making oil - would need to = remove a 1/2 cup of oil or so from the sum after 10 hours of flying. = 3/4 - 1 oz would appear to be a good range. I have flow quite a bit = with the 3/4 oz/gallon with no apparent bad effects, but most of my = flying has been with it mixed to the ratio of 1 oz / gallon. Unlike Tracy and some folks I do not premix my 2 cycle oil with the = gasoline before hand because I almost always use 100LL from the pump. = So I pour the required amount into the tank from my 18 oz bottles (did I = mention my tank is 18 gallons) and then use the fuel stream to "mix" it = up. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Al Gietzen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 6:17 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: 2-stroke oil I doubt that it matters but I'm surprised about the 'not for water = cooled engines' part. The TCW-3 rating is by the BIA (Boating Industry = of America). I haven't seen an air cooled boat motor in a very long = time. =20 Actually I didn't intend to imply 'not for water cooled engines'. I = said 'watercraft' and meant to say 'personal watercraft (PWC). And, = also, it seems I got confused. The TCW3 rating is a NMMA rating = (National Marine Manufacturers Association). I had read a long article I = came across http://www.sea-doo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm, and got = mixed up on the NMMA TWC3 rating and the API-TC (American Petroleum = Institute) rating. (And if you read the article only once in its = entirety, you may be able to see why I got confused.) For PWCs the author is suggesting sticking with API-TC rating which is = less common and more expensive than oils that are TWC3 rated. And after = re-reading, my conclusion is that the TWC3 oils should be fine for a = water cooled rotary. Some highlights are given below. What mix ratio are you guys using? Al "Ashless detergents are used in low temperature applications such as = TCW3 oils where the ring land temperature is held below 300 deg/f. These = detergents work well in engines where an excess of cooling capacity is = available and power valves are not used. Ashless detergents are = manufactured form organic nitrogen compounds (Hydrazine) instead of = heavy metal compounds; therefore, they produce no ash as they are burned = away. This is where the name "Ashless" comes from. Oils containing this = type detergent have a characteristic Ammonia odor. Ashless detergents = were used in the first generation of Bombardier XPS engine oil. The = formulation was later changed to a low ash type detergent because of the = higher temperatures generated by the 787 engines. =20 Low Ash type detergent/dispersants are used in most API-TC, Jasco FC = and ISO GC certified 2-stroke oils. These oils are designed for = air-cooled high performance engines that operate under severe = load/temperature conditions. Low Ash detergents can keep the deposits to = a minimum at ring land temperatures as high as 400 deg/f. These = detergents are manufactured from compounds of Calcium and Magnesium = (heavy metals). After these compounds (Calcium Phenate or Magnesium = Phenate) do their job, they burn away, forming a heavy metal salt (ash) = that is swept away during the normal combustion process. Hence, this is = where the name Ash-type detergent comes from. Ash type detergents depend = on the higher combustion temperatures (787 and 951 engines) to keep the = resulting ash swept out. Therefore, the use of these high performance = oils in outboard or other mildly tuned 2-stroke engines is not = recommended.=20 Some manufacturers are using a combination of detergent types (Ashless = and Low Ash) to provide a broader range of uses for their oil. It is = important to note that oil designed to meet TCW3 specs. only (Ashless) = will not protect an engine requiring API-TC (Low Ash) type oil. The = converse is also true. Using a Low Ash oil in an engine designed for an = Ashless type oil only could result in fouled plugs and gummy combustion = chambers. I hear a lot of complaints about the high cost of some 2-stroke engine = oils, mostly Bombardier XPS. Well, I have to agree, it isn't cheap, but = neither are any of the other API-TC oils compared to the TCW3 type oils. = Unfortunately it just costs more to manufacture API-TC oils than TCW3 = oils. Despite its relatively high cost, I cannot recall any Rotax engine = failing because of XPS oil. XPS oil was a joint development of Castrol = and Bombardier. Bombardier wanted a 'universal' high performance engine = oil that they could use in all their recreational products. That meant = oil would flow freely at -40 deg/f and still maintain sufficient film = strength at 350 deg/f. The first generation of XPS (1995) was formulated = using Ashless detergents; this allowed the Rave valves in the then new = 787 motor to stick. The formula was later changed (1996) to a low ash = detergent that eliminated the rave valve sticking problems. There have = been several minor improvements in XPS since 1996. Castrol remains the = only manufacturer of XPS. This is a proprietary blend sold only by = Bombardier. There are a number of good API-TC type oils out there if you = chose not to use XPS. If the oil you want to use does not have the = ATP-TC certification on the container, contact the manufacturer. Most of = them will be more than glad to provide you with information on their = products. Do not use TCW3 in your SeaDoo PWC. I don't care if it's a full = synthetic or your brother-in-law uses it; for the reasons stated above, = it will not protect your motor when conditions get tough in your motor. ------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C89430.A693BC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Al,  I started out using approx 1 = 1/2 oz per=20 gallon, but quickly settled back to 1 oz/gallon after finding I was = making oil -=20 would need to remove a 1/2 cup of oil or so from the sum after 10 hours = of=20 flying.  3/4 - 1 oz would appear to be a good range.  I have = flow=20 quite a bit with the 3/4 oz/gallon with no apparent bad effects, but = most of my=20 flying has been with it mixed to the ratio of 1 oz / = gallon.
 
Unlike Tracy and some folks I do not = premix my 2=20 cycle oil with the gasoline before hand because I almost always use = 100LL from=20 the pump.  So I pour the required amount into the tank from my 18 = oz=20 bottles (did I mention my tank is 18 gallons) and then use the fuel = stream to=20 "mix" it up.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Al = Gietzen=20
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2008 = 6:17=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = 2-stroke=20 oil

I doubt that it matters but = I'm surprised=20 about the 'not for water cooled engines' part.  The TCW-3 rating = is by=20 the BIA (Boating Industry of America).  I haven't seen an air = cooled boat=20 motor in a very long time.

  

Actually = I didn=92t=20 intend to imply =91not for water cooled engines=92.  I said = =91watercraft=92 and=20 meant to say =91personal watercraft (PWC).  And, also, it seems I = got=20 confused.  The TCW3 rating is a NMMA rating (National Marine=20 Manufacturers Association). I had=20 read a long article I came across http://www.sea-d= oo.net/techarticles/oil/oil.htm,=20 and got mixed up on the NMMA TWC3 rating and the API-TC (American = Petroleum=20 Institute) rating.  (And if you read the article only once in its = entirety, you may be able to see why I got = confused.)

 

For PWCs = the author=20 is suggesting sticking with API-TC rating which is less common and = more=20 expensive than oils that are TWC3 rated. And after re-reading, my = conclusion=20 is that the TWC3 oils should be fine for a water cooled rotary.  = Some=20 highlights are given below.

 

What mix = ratio are=20 you guys using?

 

Al

 

=93Ashless=20 detergents are used in low temperature applications such as TCW3 oils = where=20 the ring land temperature is held below 300 deg/f. These detergents = work well=20 in engines where an excess of cooling capacity is available and power = valves=20 are not used. Ashless detergents are manufactured form organic = nitrogen=20 compounds (Hydrazine) instead of heavy metal compounds; therefore, = they=20 produce no ash as they are burned away. This is where the name = =93Ashless=94 comes=20 from. Oils containing this type detergent have a characteristic = Ammonia odor.=20 Ashless detergents were used in the first generation of Bombardier XPS = engine=20 oil. The formulation was later changed to a low ash type detergent = because of=20 the higher temperatures generated by the 787 engines.  

 

Low Ash type detergent/dispersants are used = in most=20 API-TC, Jasco FC and ISO GC certified 2-stroke oils. These oils are = designed=20 for air-cooled high performance engines that operate under severe=20 load/temperature conditions. Low Ash detergents can keep the deposits = to a=20 minimum at ring land temperatures as high as 400 deg/f. These = detergents are=20 manufactured from compounds of Calcium and Magnesium (heavy metals). = After=20 these compounds (Calcium Phenate or Magnesium Phenate) do their job, = they burn=20 away, forming a heavy metal salt (ash) that is swept away during the = normal=20 combustion process. Hence, this is where the name Ash-type detergent = comes=20 from. Ash type detergents depend on the higher combustion temperatures = (787=20 and 951 engines) to keep the resulting ash swept out. Therefore, the = use of=20 these high performance oils in outboard or other mildly tuned 2-stroke = engines=20 is not recommended.

 

Some manufacturers are using a combination = of=20 detergent types (Ashless and  Low Ash) = to=20 provide a broader range of uses for their oil.  It is important = to note=20 that oil designed to meet TCW3 specs. only (Ashless) will not protect = an=20 engine requiring API-TC (Low Ash) type oil. The converse is also true. = Using=20 a Low Ash oil in an engine designed for an = Ashless=20 type oil only could result in fouled plugs and gummy combustion=20 chambers.

 

I hear a lot of complaints about the high = cost of some=20 2-stroke engine oils, mostly Bombardier XPS. Well, I have to agree, it = isn=92t=20 cheap, but neither are any of the other API-TC oils compared to the = TCW3 type=20 oils. Unfortunately it just costs more to manufacture API-TC oils than = TCW3=20 oils. Despite its relatively high cost, I cannot recall any Rotax = engine=20 failing because of XPS oil.  XPS oil was a joint development of = Castrol=20 and Bombardier. Bombardier wanted a = =91universal=92 high=20 performance engine oil that they could use in all their recreational = products.=20 That meant oil would flow freely at =9640 deg/f and still maintain = sufficient=20 film strength at 350 deg/f. The first generation of XPS (1995) was = formulated=20 using Ashless detergents; this allowed the Rave valves in the then new = 787=20 motor to stick. The formula was later changed (1996) to a low ash = detergent=20 that eliminated the rave valve sticking problems. There have been = several=20 minor improvements in XPS since 1996. Castrol remains the only = manufacturer of=20 XPS. This is a proprietary blend sold only by Bombardier. There are a = number=20 of good API-TC type oils out there if you chose not to use XPS. If the = oil you=20 want to use does not have the ATP-TC certification on the container, = contact=20 the manufacturer. Most of them will be more than glad to provide you = with=20 information on their products.

Do not use TCW3 in your SeaDoo PWC.  I = don=92t care=20 if it=92s a full synthetic or your brother-in-law uses it; for the = reasons=20 stated above, it will not protect your motor when conditions get tough = in your=20 motor.

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0016_01C89430.A693BC20--