X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from QMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.96] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.1) with ESMTP id 2817187 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:58:40 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=76.96.30.96; envelope-from=gregw@onestopdesign.biz Received: from OMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net ([76.96.30.19]) by QMTA09.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5NZV1Z0080QkzPwA90Jw00; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:56:59 +0000 Received: from gregoryii ([24.6.40.29]) by OMTA02.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net with comcast id 5Sxt1Z00A0dkeQQ8N00000; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 14:57:54 +0000 X-Authority-Analysis: v=1.0 c=1 a=B9VjO-MDjpAA:10 a=V1X3Pbui5Qz-QQH0A4IA:9 a=AV0U8OyJz6Bk7z0vttsA:7 a=OeLlL8TASD7ZoNcdU8OO3qibIyAA:4 a=U8Ie8EnqySEA:10 a=eJojReuL3h0A:10 a=b8hG5vVbyAkA:10 a=3oc9M9_CAAAA:8 a=oPKYaZbnKyFss9yc_GsA:9 a=AwFKw5VsI8rzQfpfNFIA:7 a=wy__iW5gxwRJk3ODmpZwivcltmsA:4 a=MSl-tDqOz04A:10 a=EzXvWhQp4_cA:10 a=AfD3MYMu9mQA:10 Message-ID: <00bf01c88e89$0b52f930$8801a8c0@yosemite.onestopdesign.biz> From: "Greg Ward" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Change Interval Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 08:01:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C88E4E.5E8FBA10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C88E4E.5E8FBA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Lynn and Mark; So what would the consensus be as the only difference between my setup = and Mark's is that I am using a fixed pitch prop? Type of oil and = frequency of change would be the question, especially with the redrive. = Tracy? Greg ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 2:31 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Change Interval Lynn,=20 Thanks for the great summary on oil. I guess I should have provided a = bit more information on my first posting. This is a n/a 3-rotor with a = 2.85:1.0 RD2-C gearbox and an electric c/s prop. Normal engine operating = range is between 5200 and 7000 rpm with the vast majority of time spent = in the 5000 - 6000 range. I may briefly hit 7200-7300 rpm on takeoff = roll, but that's only for a few seconds until the prop bites. Cruise = flight is usually around 5200 rpm. The OMP has been removed and blocked = off and I pre-mix a 50-50 blend of 2-stroke and MMO. Living in Texas, = my oil temps are high enough that I'm not too worried about moisture = buildup. The airplane is kept in a closed hangar and I try to fly at = least an hour or two every weekend. One of my concerns was the RD2-C. = Is it happy with annual oil changes?=20 Can you provide a source for the inline magnet for the psru? =20 Thanks, Mark S. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:59 AM, wrote: There is little correlation between car engines and most aircraft = engines. The problem with car engines is acid build up caused by low oil = temps not boiling off the condensate during each use. The water combines = with the sulphur compounds from combustion and forming sulfuric acid = among a witches brew of chemicals that are not associated with = lubrication. The oil in the bottle or can comes with several chemicals = that will neutralize some volume of acid. Once it does that, additional = acid is free to do the bad mojo on the light alloys in the engine. = Channels in the bearing faces. Blackend stripes around edges of = bearings, rough surfaces on normally smooth die castings and so on. It = is seldom that a car sits idle for more than a week.=20 It is the reverse for aircraft. A month off is not uncommon. The = rotary with its hotter oil soon after startup has no problem boiling off = water based products. It has minimal crankcase volume and on cool down = sucks in only a small volume of humidified air, so less condensate than = a piston aircraft engine. You should put a filter on your breather, = because it does suck air into itself on cool down.=20 I have been gifted cars owned by girls that have never had the oil = changed. Of course the engines were seized. The breath of Cesar problem. = (Evidence of the first oil will always be there)=20 The object of changing the oil, is to dispose of the acid and renew = the anti acid package in the oil. At the same time the other products of = combustion that have slipped by the seals are removed as well. But the = hot oil of the rotary is a big help so long as it runs long enough to = get the oil hot. If you have a screw together filter housing in the = drain from the reduction box containing a magnet to stop any steel being = dropped off the gears, (no element, just the magnet) then an annual oil = change sounds perfectly acceptable. The engine is under no strain at all = and specialty oils are of little value. Use whatever is best for the = gear box. A car racing oil for its extra anti acid package and extra = zink anti scuff compounds would be better. And a separate oil supply for = the rotors of 2 cycle oil would keep the housings clean and the seals = free in their grooves.=20 If you use the Oil metering pump, the crank case oil will be dropped = into the rotor housings. Regular street oil resists burning and leaves = behind unburned crap from the multi grade plastics, in the housings, = fouling the apex seals. If you use the OMP, stick to straight wt. oils. = Racing oils make it worse as they resist burning or even breakdown to = higher temps. Synthetics don't burn at all and are a bad choice for OMP = use. You can leave the OMP on and cut into the passage in the front = cover anywhere its handy and install a dash 3 fitting and run 2 cycle = oil from a bottle on the fire wall. Plug the oil passage at the face = where it connects with the front iron. Now you can run any crank case = oil and not worry about the apex seals.=20 I used Redline synthetic 40 wt. racing oil in the crank case of the = race car. The top oil was Redline synthetic racing 2 cycle oil (for dirt = bikes) and never a failure. No wear on apex seals (soft carbon). I = changed oil every 4 races, about 8 hours or a bit less. The pretty green = oil (not red?) would be black after 4 weekends. Engine was used between = 7,500 and 9,600 RPM. Oil pressure is 100 pounds. oil temp is 180 to 190 = (hot day) and water 160 -180- (hot day) If we could not get to 160 we = put the thermostat in it. Lynn E. Hanover =20 In a message dated 3/25/2008 12:10:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, = bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes: So 15K at an average of 150 MPH would be 100 hrs=85Most cars = change at 3K to 7K I think=857.5K would get you about 50 hours..?? There is no stop and go to build up water and stuff. I bet you = could get 100 hours on 12 quarts of Mobil 1 with no adverse effects. What do you think, Lynn? Bill B=20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home. ------=_NextPart_000_00BC_01C88E4E.5E8FBA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Lynn and Mark;
So what would the consensus be as the only = difference=20 between my setup and Mark's is that I am using a fixed pitch prop?  = Type of=20 oil and frequency of change would be the question, especially with the=20 redrive.  Tracy?
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2008 = 2:31=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil = Change=20 Interval

Lynn,

Thanks for the great summary on = oil.  I=20 guess I should have provided a bit more information on my first = posting. =20 This is a n/a 3-rotor with a 2.85:1.0 RD2-C gearbox and an electric = c/s prop.=20 Normal engine operating range is between 5200 and 7000 rpm with the = vast=20 majority of time spent in the 5000 - 6000 range.  I may briefly = hit=20 7200-7300 rpm on takeoff roll, but that's only for a few seconds until = the=20 prop bites.  Cruise flight is usually around 5200 rpm.  The = OMP has=20 been removed and blocked off and I pre-mix a 50-50 blend of 2-stroke = and=20 MMO.  Living in Texas, my oil temps are high enough that I'm not = too=20 worried about moisture buildup.  The airplane is kept in a closed = hangar=20 and I try to fly at least an hour or two every weekend.  One of = my=20 concerns was the RD2-C.  Is it happy with annual oil changes? =

Can=20 you provide a source for the inline magnet for the psru? =20

Thanks,

Mark S.


On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:59 AM, <Lehanover@aol.com> wrote:
There is little correlation between car engines and most = aircraft=20 engines. The problem with car engines is acid build up caused by low = oil=20 temps not boiling off the condensate during each use. The water = combines=20 with the sulphur compounds from combustion and forming sulfuric acid = among=20 a witches  brew of chemicals that are not associated with=20 lubrication. The oil in the bottle or can comes with several = chemicals that=20 will neutralize some volume of acid. Once it does that, additional = acid is=20 free to do the bad mojo on the light alloys in the engine. Channels = in the=20 bearing faces. Blackend stripes around edges of bearings, rough = surfaces on=20 normally smooth die castings and so on. It is seldom that a car sits = idle=20 for more than a week.
It is the reverse for aircraft. A month off is not uncommon. = The rotary=20 with its hotter oil soon after startup has no problem boiling off = water=20 based products. It has minimal crankcase volume and on cool down = sucks in=20 only a small volume of humidified air, so less condensate than a = piston=20 aircraft engine. You should put a filter on your breather, = because it=20 does suck air into itself on cool down.
 
I have been gifted cars owned by girls that have never had the = oil=20 changed. Of course the engines were seized. The breath of Cesar = problem.=20 (Evidence of the first oil will always be there)
 
 
The object of changing the oil, is to dispose of the acid and = renew the=20 anti acid package in the oil. At the same time the other = products of=20 combustion that have slipped by the seals are removed as well. But = the hot=20 oil of the rotary is a big help so long as it runs long enough to = get the=20 oil hot. If you have a screw together filter housing in the drain = from the=20 reduction box containing a magnet to stop any steel being dropped = off the=20 gears, (no element, just the magnet) then an annual oil change = sounds=20 perfectly acceptable. The engine is under no strain at all and=20 specialty oils are of little value. Use whatever is best for the = gear box. A=20 car racing oil for its extra anti acid package and extra zink anti = scuff=20 compounds would be better. And a separate oil supply for the rotors = of 2=20 cycle oil would keep the housings clean and the seals free in their = grooves.=20
 
If you use the Oil metering pump, the crank case oil will be = dropped=20 into the rotor housings. Regular street oil resists burning and = leaves=20 behind unburned crap from the multi grade plastics, in the housings, = fouling=20 the apex seals. If you use the OMP, stick to straight wt. oils. = Racing oils=20 make it worse as they resist burning or even breakdown to higher = temps.=20 Synthetics don't burn at all and are a bad choice for OMP use. You = can=20 leave the OMP on and cut into the passage in the front = cover=20 anywhere its handy and install a dash 3 fitting and run 2 cycle oil = from a=20 bottle on the fire wall. Plug the oil passage at the face where it = connects=20 with the front iron. Now you can run any crank case oil and not = worry=20 about the apex seals.
 
I used Redline synthetic 40 wt. racing oil in the crank case of = the=20 race car. The top oil was Redline synthetic racing 2 cycle oil (for = dirt=20 bikes) and never a failure. No wear on apex seals (soft carbon). I = changed=20 oil every 4 races, about 8 hours or a bit less. The pretty green = oil =20 (not red?) would be black after 4 weekends. Engine was used between = 7,500=20 and 9,600 RPM. Oil pressure is 100 pounds. oil temp is 180 to 190 = (hot day)=20 and water 160 -180- (hot day) If we could not get to 160 we put the=20 thermostat in it.
 
Lynn E. Hanover    
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/25/2008 12:10:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight = Time, bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes:

So=20 15K at an average of 150 MPH would be 100 hrs=85Most cars change = at 3K to 7K=20 I think=857.5K would get you about 50 hours..??

There=20 is no stop and go to build up water and stuff.  I bet you = could get=20 100 hours on 12 quarts of Mobil 1 with no adverse=20 effects.

What=20 do you think, Lynn?

 

Bill=20 = B 



Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL=20 = Home.

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