X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.170.187] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.1) with ESMTP id 2816732 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 05:32:13 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.170.187; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id s46so1706666rnb.3 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 02:31:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=w3HYDl29DejG1kzOEwAgeb78LMNJtiwN9m7kopxDX1o=; b=JFKBuqgRN2ayeNntHR0KN8y7Oom/67clNwhV4y9NnsFXR/g3aCHJ/aDi/AluD+v+hOwtk6u3TTMsZzciSf1aKgdFc3kDQ7cxQbRvU6WGUH3MOnSoTxX4ZCKyksHiwoM6wqn3CBEOxgxrevl9t6fhk0Nnc5u2LMxv5j842kmuYwY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=BI9lMrCGR04UiblVW99mgrZdct9M8lHXEQvXYG7yZHlgWb85OzG+rocyjEwqHrp32/zRh2Q8ucDsXYrzE3Z8tTGEpe+GFEgqiQK40bb9hPp6/pvSMo88JtDlGlEK5E0RcFzs4/Ee6HRHxEk8Ls0vfpGu1b1FFCwAZ9L6JKJfv6k= Received: by 10.140.207.16 with SMTP id e16mr3061082rvg.297.1206437493609; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 02:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.40.14 with HTTP; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 02:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0803250231r82e327dob7d8a317ad5d7a14@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 04:31:33 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil Change Interval In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_18404_4128939.1206437493508" References: ------=_Part_18404_4128939.1206437493508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Lynn, Thanks for the great summary on oil. I guess I should have provided a bit more information on my first posting. This is a n/a 3-rotor with a 2.85:1.0RD2-C gearbox and an electric c/s prop. Normal engine operating range is between 5200 and 7000 rpm with the vast majority of time spent in the 5000 = - 6000 range. I may briefly hit 7200-7300 rpm on takeoff roll, but that's only for a few seconds until the prop bites. Cruise flight is usually around 5200 rpm. The OMP has been removed and blocked off and I pre-mix a 50-50 blend of 2-stroke and MMO. Living in Texas, my oil temps are high enough that I'm not too worried about moisture buildup. The airplane is kept in a closed hangar and I try to fly at least an hour or two every weekend. One of my concerns was the RD2-C. Is it happy with annual oil changes? Can you provide a source for the inline magnet for the psru? Thanks, Mark S. On Tue, Mar 25, 2008 at 1:59 AM, wrote: > There is little correlation between car engines and most aircraft > engines. The problem with car engines is acid build up caused by low oil > temps not boiling off the condensate during each use. The water combines > with the sulphur compounds from combustion and forming sulfuric acid amon= g > a witches brew of chemicals that are not associated with lubrication. Th= e > oil in the bottle or can comes with several chemicals that will neutraliz= e > some volume of acid. Once it does that, additional acid is free to do the > bad mojo on the light alloys in the engine. Channels in the bearing faces= . > Blackend stripes around edges of bearings, rough surfaces on normally smo= oth > die castings and so on. It is seldom that a car sits idle for more than a > week. > It is the reverse for aircraft. A month off is not uncommon. The rotary > with its hotter oil soon after startup has no problem boiling off water > based products. It has minimal crankcase volume and on cool down sucks in > only a small volume of humidified air, so less condensate than a piston > aircraft engine. You should put a filter on your breather, because it doe= s > suck air into itself on cool down. > > I have been gifted cars owned by girls that have never had the oil > changed. Of course the engines were seized. The breath of Cesar problem. > (Evidence of the first oil will always be there) > > > The object of changing the oil, is to dispose of the acid and renew the > anti acid package in the oil. At the same time the other products of > combustion that have slipped by the seals are removed as well. But the ho= t > oil of the rotary is a big help so long as it runs long enough to get the > oil hot. If you have a screw together filter housing in the drain from th= e > reduction box containing a magnet to stop any steel being dropped off the > gears, (no element, just the magnet) then an annual oil change sounds > perfectly acceptable. The engine is under no strain at all and specialty > oils are of little value. Use whatever is best for the gear box. A car > racing oil for its extra anti acid package and extra zink anti scuff > compounds would be better. And a separate oil supply for the rotors of 2 > cycle oil would keep the housings clean and the seals free in their groov= es. > > > If you use the Oil metering pump, the crank case oil will be dropped into > the rotor housings. Regular street oil resists burning and leaves behind > unburned crap from the multi grade plastics, in the housings, fouling the > apex seals. If you use the OMP, stick to straight wt. oils. Racing oils m= ake > it worse as they resist burning or even breakdown to higher temps. > Synthetics don't burn at all and are a bad choice for OMP use. You can > leave the OMP on and cut into the passage in the front cover anywhere its > handy and install a dash 3 fitting and run 2 cycle oil from a bottle on t= he > fire wall. Plug the oil passage at the face where it connects with the fr= ont > iron. Now you can run any crank case oil and not worry about the apex sea= ls. > > > I used Redline synthetic 40 wt. racing oil in the crank case of the race > car. The top oil was Redline synthetic racing 2 cycle oil (for dirt bikes= ) > and never a failure. No wear on apex seals (soft carbon). I changed oil > every 4 races, about 8 hours or a bit less. The pretty green oil (not re= d?) > would be black after 4 weekends. Engine was used between 7,500 and 9,600 > RPM. Oil pressure is 100 pounds. oil temp is 180 to 190 (hot day) and wat= er > 160 -180- (hot day) If we could not get to 160 we put the thermostat in i= t. > > Lynn E. Hanover > > > > > > In a message dated 3/25/2008 12:10:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > bbradburry@bellsouth.net writes: > > So 15K at an average of 150 MPH would be 100 hrs=85Most cars change at 3= K > to 7K I think=857.5K would get you about 50 hours..?? > > There is no stop and go to build up water and stuff. I bet you could get > 100 hours on 12 quarts of Mobil 1 with no adverse effects. > > What do you think, Lynn? > > > > Bill B > > > > > ------------------------------ > Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home > . > ------=_Part_18404_4128939.1206437493508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Lynn,

Thanks for the great summary on oil.  I guess I should h= ave provided a bit more information on my first posting.  This is a n/= a 3-rotor with a 2.85:1.0 RD2-C gearbox and an electric c/s prop. Normal en= gine operating range is between 5200 and 7000 rpm with the vast majority of= time spent in the 5000 - 6000 range.  I may briefly hit 7200-7300 rpm= on takeoff roll, but that's only for a few seconds until the prop bite= s.  Cruise flight is usually around 5200 rpm.  The OMP has been r= emoved and blocked off and I pre-mix a 50-50 blend of 2-stroke and MMO.&nbs= p; Living in Texas, my oil temps are high enough that I'm not too worri= ed about moisture buildup.  The airplane is kept in a closed hangar an= d I try to fly at least an hour or two every weekend.  One of my conce= rns was the RD2-C.  Is it happy with annual oil changes?

Can you provide a source for the inline magnet for the psru? 
=
Thanks,

Mark S.


On Tue, M= ar 25, 2008 at 1:59 AM, <Lehanover= @aol.com> wrote:
There is little correlation between car engines and most aircraft engi= nes.=20 The problem with car engines is acid build up caused by low oil temps not= =20 boiling off the condensate during each use. The water combines with the sul= phur=20 compounds from combustion and forming sulfuric acid among a witches=20  brew of chemicals that are not associated with lubrication. The oil i= n the=20 bottle or can comes with several chemicals that will neutralize some volume= of=20 acid. Once it does that, additional acid is free to do the bad mojo on the = light=20 alloys in the engine. Channels in the bearing faces. Blackend stripes aroun= d=20 edges of bearings, rough surfaces on normally smooth die castings and so on= . It=20 is seldom that a car sits idle for more than a week.
It is the reverse for aircraft. A month off is not uncommon. The rotar= y=20 with its hotter oil soon after startup has no problem boiling off water bas= ed=20 products. It has minimal crankcase volume and on cool down sucks in only a = small=20 volume of humidified air, so less condensate than a piston aircraft engine.= You=20 should put a filter on your breather, because it does suck air into it= self=20 on cool down.
 
I have been gifted cars owned by girls that have never had the oil cha= nged.=20 Of course the engines were seized. The breath of Cesar problem. (Evidence o= f the=20 first oil will always be there)
 
 
The object of changing the oil, is to dispose of the acid and renew th= e=20 anti acid package in the oil. At the same time the other products of= =20 combustion that have slipped by the seals are removed as well. But the hot = oil=20 of the rotary is a big help so long as it runs long enough to get the oil h= ot.=20 If you have a screw together filter housing in the drain from the reduction= box=20 containing a magnet to stop any steel being dropped off the gears, (no elem= ent,=20 just the magnet) then an annual oil change sounds perfectly acceptable= . The=20 engine is under no strain at all and specialty oils are of little value. Us= e=20 whatever is best for the gear box. A car racing oil for its extra anti acid= =20 package and extra zink anti scuff compounds would be better. And a separate= oil=20 supply for the rotors of 2 cycle oil would keep the housings clean and the = seals=20 free in their grooves.
 
If you use the Oil metering pump, the crank case oil will be dropped i= nto=20 the rotor housings. Regular street oil resists burning and leaves behind=20 unburned crap from the multi grade plastics, in the housings, fouling the a= pex=20 seals. If you use the OMP, stick to straight wt. oils. Racing oils make it = worse=20 as they resist burning or even breakdown to higher temps. Synthetics don= 9;t burn=20 at all and are a bad choice for OMP use. You can leave the OMP on= and=20 cut into the passage in the front cover anywhere its handy and install a da= sh 3=20 fitting and run 2 cycle oil from a bottle on the fire wall. Plug the oil pa= ssage=20 at the face where it connects with the front iron. Now you can run any= =20 crank case oil and not worry about the apex seals.
 
I used Redline synthetic 40 wt. racing oil in the crank case of the ra= ce=20 car. The top oil was Redline synthetic racing 2 cycle oil (for dirt bikes) = and=20 never a failure. No wear on apex seals (soft carbon). I changed oil every 4= =20 races, about 8 hours or a bit less. The pretty green oil  (not red?) w= ould=20 be black after 4 weekends. Engine was used between 7,500 and 9,600 RPM. Oil= =20 pressure is 100 pounds. oil temp is 180 to 190 (hot day) and water 160 -180= -=20 (hot day) If we could not get to 160 we put the thermostat in it.
 
Lynn E. Hanover    
 
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 3/25/2008 12:10:12 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 bbradburry@be= llsouth.net writes:

So 15K at an average of 150 MPH would be 100 hrs=85Most=20 cars change at 3K to 7K I think=857.5K would get you about 50=20 hours..??

There is no stop and go to build up water and=20 stuff.  I bet you could get 100 hours on 12 quarts of Mobil 1 with n= o=20 adverse effects.

What do you think, Lynn?

 

Bill=20 B 


<= br>
Create a Home Theater Like the Pros. Watch the video on AOL Home.

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