X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.121] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTP id 2791484 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:41:41 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.121; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([75.191.186.236]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20080314144100.UJRK23470.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 14:41:00 +0000 Message-ID: <003d01c885e1$80291150$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Various Possible solutions to coolant in housing Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:41:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0038_01C885BF.F5D76180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C885BF.F5D76180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, regarding possible crack in side wall of "O" ring groove. The = only other thing I could think to try is the "dye crack" approach. You = know the old tested and tried method of finding cracks in ferrious = metal. You might find some of the dye at your local A&P shop. Would = certainly be easier than putting it all back together. Regarding Alternative Plugs - they may be referring to machining away = the boss that sticks up around the spark plug holes which makes it = difficult to put in anything but a stock Mazda plug. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christopher Barber=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 12:45 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Various Possible solutions to coolant in housing I have been inspecting and re-inspecting the plates (front, center and = rear) and the housing over the last few days...over and over with = trusted second set of eyes helping with the process. I have taken a = straight edge to the plates and with a .0015 feeler gage (the smallest I = could find...the spec is 0016 IIRC ) could not get it to even think = about going under the straight edge. The plates seem solid, straight = and in damn good shape. =20 I have taken a dental pick and "ticked" it around the oil seal grooves = and it seems solid all around. However, after viewing the Mazdatrix = website, it shows where the side of the O-ring groves may give way. = They state it is hard to diagnose but can be a way coolant gets into the = combustion chamber (http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/sidehsgs.htm photo's 4 = and 5). They had to use very high pressure over an extended period to = make the bad area actually VISIBLY fail. IS THERE A WAY to determine = if these groove side walls are solid without the high pressure, long = term pressure test process....which is beyond my ability? I hate the = idea of putting these back together and continue to have a = problem......I also hate the idea of the about $400.00 ish each for new = plates :-( I really thing the side plates are ok IF these grooves are = good. Any ideas? Next, when we have meticulously inspected the housings, we seem to see a = couple of EXTREMELY slight irregularities around the edge where the = water seal would lay between it and the side seals. My buddy...a VERY = trusted resource, feels this could be enough to cause a problem. Also, = when I broke out the digital calipers I measured several places around = the housings and it seems the thickness around the diameter I am getting = is reading slightly out of spec for differences in thickness around the = housings. Is it proper or even possible to take these to a machine shop and have = them machined smooth and flat? Or is it better to just suck it up and = buy new housings? I am about a "wild hair" away from just giving in and = buying two new housing just to get going again and end all question of = them being a future problem....at least for the current reasons. I hate = the idea of throwing money at something that may be perfectly fine = (after all I am not the government) What are y'all's thoughts? As to the O-rings that came out of the engine for the inner rings there = does seem to be some roughness along a couple of areas on the O-rings. = The areas are about 1.5 inches long, give are take, and seem to be on a = couple of the rings and in about the same area on the various plates. = This would seem to be indicative to over heating......Yes, No....????? Also, the price for new housings from Pineapple Racing (558.00) does not = seem too bad (Mazdatrix are 571.78 w/ cash discount). One of the = "features" Pineapple Racing promotes on their site is that they have = "machined spark plug holes" so as to accept alternative plugs. What the = heck is this? I hope to get a chance to call them on the morrow but = what say Ye? I tend to kick around the various ideas before I decide, but as a rule = do not knee jerk react to things even though it may seem this way. I do = not want to drop a grand+ for new housings, but that may be inevitable. = More so, I don't want to toss an additional $1400 on new side = plates......however, I also want some piece of mind that at least these = issues are addressed. Will love to get your opinions. TIA. All the best, Chris Velocity SE Houston ------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C885BF.F5D76180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris, regarding possible crack in side = wall of "O"=20 ring groove.  The only other thing I could think to try is the "dye = crack"=20 approach.  You know the old tested and tried method of finding = cracks in=20 ferrious metal.  You might find some of the dye at your local = A&P=20 shop.  Would certainly be easier than putting it all back=20 together.

Regarding Alternative Plugs - they may be referring to=20 machining away the boss that sticks up around the spark plug holes which = makes=20 it difficult to put in anything but a stock Mazda plug.
 
Ed
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Barber =
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Friday, March 14, 2008 12:45 = AM
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Various Possible solutions to coolant in = housing


I have=20 been inspecting and re-inspecting the plates (front, center and rear) = and the=20 housing over the last few days...over and over with trusted second set = of eyes=20 helping with the process.  I have taken a straight edge to the = plates and=20 with a .0015 feeler gage (the smallest I could find...the spec is 0016 = IIRC )=20 could not get it to even think about going under the straight = edge.  The=20 plates seem solid, straight and in damn good shape. 

I have = taken a=20 dental pick and "ticked" it around the oil seal grooves and it seems = solid all=20 around.  However, after viewing the Mazdatrix website, it shows = where the=20 side of the O-ring groves may give way.  They state it is hard to = diagnose=20 but can be a way coolant gets into the combustion chamber=20 (http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/sidehsgs.htm photo's 4 and 5). They had to = use=20 very high pressure over an extended period to make the bad area actually = VISIBLY=20 fail.  IS THERE  A WAY to determine if these groove side walls = are=20 solid without the high pressure, long term pressure test = process....which is=20 beyond my ability?  I hate the idea of putting these back together = and=20 continue to have a problem......I also hate the idea of the about = $400.00 ish=20 each for new plates :-(  I really thing the side plates are ok IF = these=20 grooves are good.  Any ideas?

Next, when we have = meticulously=20 inspected the housings, we seem to see a couple of EXTREMELY slight=20 irregularities around the edge where the water seal would lay between it = and the=20 side seals.  My buddy...a VERY trusted resource, feels this could = be enough=20 to cause a problem. Also, when I broke out the digital calipers I = measured=20 several places around the housings and it seems the thickness around the = diameter I am getting is reading slightly out of spec for differences in = thickness around the housings.

Is it proper or even possible to = take=20 these to a machine shop and have them machined smooth and flat?  Or = is it=20 better to just suck it up and buy new housings?  I am about a "wild = hair"=20 away from just giving in and buying two new housing just to get going = again and=20 end all question of them being a future problem....at least for the = current=20 reasons.  I hate the idea of throwing money at something that may = be=20 perfectly fine (after all I am not the government) What are y'all's=20 thoughts?

As to the O-rings that came out of the engine for the = inner=20 rings there does seem to be some roughness along a couple of areas on = the=20 O-rings.  The areas are about 1.5 inches long, give are take, and = seem to=20 be on a couple of the rings and in about the same area on the various=20 plates.  This would seem to be indicative to over heating......Yes, = No....?????

Also, the price for new housings from Pineapple = Racing=20 (558.00) does not seem too bad (Mazdatrix are 571.78 w/ cash = discount). =20 One of the "features" Pineapple Racing promotes on their site is that = they have=20 "machined spark plug holes" so as to accept alternative plugs.  = What the=20 heck is this?  I hope to get a chance to call them on the morrow = but what=20 say Ye?

I tend to kick around the various ideas before I decide, = but as a=20 rule do not knee jerk react to things even though it may seem this = way.  I=20 do not want to drop a grand+ for new housings, but that may be = inevitable. =20 More so, I don't want to toss an additional $1400 on new side=20 plates......however, I also want some piece of mind that at least these = issues=20 are addressed.

Will love to get your opinions.  = TIA.

All the=20 best,

Chris
Velocity SE
Houston
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01C885BF.F5D76180--