X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from mail16.syd.optusnet.com.au ([211.29.132.197] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2.0) with ESMTPS id 2791085 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 03:53:37 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=211.29.132.197; envelope-from=lendich@optusnet.com.au Received: from george (d58-105-94-237.dsl.nsw.optusnet.com.au [58.105.94.237]) by mail16.syd.optusnet.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id m2E7qIvi018132 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 2008 18:52:41 +1100 Message-ID: <002f01c885a8$615f13c0$ed5e693a@george> From: "George Lendich" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Various Possible solutions to coolant in housing Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2008 17:52:18 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C885FC.258560D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 0657-0, 12/12/2006), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C885FC.258560D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Chris, Lynn is the expert in these things, but I was under the impression that = the end housing grooves had to show signs of cracking before the seal = would allow leaks. The seals, seal at the top and bottom of the seal, = the sides of the grooves merely restrict the seal from moving from it's = predetermined place. For instance a seal groove slot would need to loose = a piece from the thin side ( water jacket side) to allow the seal to = move and allow water in. That has been my take on it anyway. The reason Mazda went back to water jacket seals in the rotor housings = like in the 12A, is because the steel liner is sturdier than the thin = wall in the cast iron end housings and there is less chance of this = happening. In my single I will use 12A housing and early 13B cosmo rotor housings = as they are the same style as the RX8. The cost of housings are approx $500 in most places. The rotor housings = should be OK unless they have been shrunk through overheating - they = could be machined but I worry about side clearance for the rotors in = this case. Don't know about the plugs - but be sure to tell us when you find out.. George ( down under) I have been inspecting and re-inspecting the plates (front, center and = rear) and the housing over the last few days...over and over with = trusted second set of eyes helping with the process. I have taken a = straight edge to the plates and with a .0015 feeler gage (the smallest I = could find...the spec is 0016 IIRC ) could not get it to even think = about going under the straight edge. The plates seem solid, straight = and in damn good shape. =20 I have taken a dental pick and "ticked" it around the oil seal grooves = and it seems solid all around. However, after viewing the Mazdatrix = website, it shows where the side of the O-ring groves may give way. = They state it is hard to diagnose but can be a way coolant gets into the = combustion chamber (http://www.mazdatrix.com/faq/sidehsgs.htm photo's 4 = and 5). They had to use very high pressure over an extended period to = make the bad area actually VISIBLY fail. IS THERE A WAY to determine = if these groove side walls are solid without the high pressure, long = term pressure test process....which is beyond my ability? I hate the = idea of putting these back together and continue to have a = problem......I also hate the idea of the about $400.00 ish each for new = plates :-( I really thing the side plates are ok IF these grooves are = good. Any ideas? Next, when we have meticulously inspected the housings, we seem to see = a couple of EXTREMELY slight irregularities around the edge where the = water seal would lay between it and the side seals. My buddy...a VERY = trusted resource, feels this could be enough to cause a problem. Also, = when I broke out the digital calipers I measured several places around = the housings and it seems the thickness around the diameter I am getting = is reading slightly out of spec for differences in thickness around the = housings. Is it proper or even possible to take these to a machine shop and have = them machined smooth and flat? Or is it better to just suck it up and = buy new housings? I am about a "wild hair" away from just giving in and = buying two new housing just to get going again and end all question of = them being a future problem....at least for the current reasons. I hate = the idea of throwing money at something that may be perfectly fine = (after all I am not the government) What are y'all's thoughts? As to the O-rings that came out of the engine for the inner rings = there does seem to be some roughness along a couple of areas on the = O-rings. The areas are about 1.5 inches long, give are take, and seem = to be on a couple of the rings and in about the same area on the various = plates. This would seem to be indicative to over heating......Yes, = No....????? Also, the price for new housings from Pineapple Racing (558.00) does = not seem too bad (Mazdatrix are 571.78 w/ cash discount). One of the = "features" Pineapple Racing promotes on their site is that they have = "machined spark plug holes" so as to accept alternative plugs. What the = heck is this? I hope to get a chance to call them on the morrow but = what say Ye? I tend to kick around the various ideas before I decide, but as a rule = do not knee jerk react to things even though it may seem this way. I do = not want to drop a grand+ for new housings, but that may be inevitable. = More so, I don't want to toss an additional $1400 on new side = plates......however, I also want some piece of mind that at least these = issues are addressed. Will love to get your opinions. TIA. All the best, Chris Velocity SE Houston -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG.=20 Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1324 - Release Date: = 10/03/2008 7:27 PM ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C885FC.258560D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Chris,
Lynn is the expert in these things, but = I was under=20 the impression that the end housing grooves had to show signs of = cracking before=20 the seal would allow leaks. The seals, seal at the top and bottom of the = seal,=20 the sides of the grooves merely restrict the seal from moving from it's=20 predetermined place. For instance a seal groove slot would need to loose = a piece=20 from the thin side ( water jacket side) to allow the seal to move and = allow=20 water in. That has been my take on it anyway.
The  reason Mazda went back to = water jacket=20 seals in the rotor housings like in the 12A, is because the steel liner = is=20 sturdier than the thin wall in the cast iron end housings and there is = less=20 chance of this happening.
In my single I will use 12A housing and = early 13B=20 cosmo rotor housings as they are the same style as the RX8.
The cost of housings are approx $500 in = most=20 places. The rotor housings should be OK unless they have been shrunk = through=20 overheating - they could be machined but I worry about side clearance = for the=20 rotors in this case.
Don't know about the plugs - but be = sure to tell us=20 when you find out..
George ( down under)
I have been inspecting and = re-inspecting the=20 plates (front, center and rear) and the housing over the last few = days...over=20 and over with trusted second set of eyes helping with the = process.  I=20 have taken a straight edge to the plates and with a .0015 feeler=20 gage (the smallest I could find...the spec is = 0016 IIRC ) could=20 not get it to even think about going under the straight edge.  = The plates=20 seem solid, straight and in damn good shape. 
 
I have taken a dental pick and = "ticked" it around=20 the oil seal grooves and it seems solid all around.  = However, after=20 viewing the Mazdatrix website, it shows where the side of the O-ring = groves=20 may give way.  They state it is hard to diagnose but can be a way = coolant=20 gets into the combustion chamber (http://www.mazdatrix.c= om/faq/sidehsgs.htm photo's=20 4 and 5). They had to use very high pressure over an extended period = to make=20 the bad area actually VISIBLY fail.  IS THERE  A WAY to = determine if=20 these groove side walls are solid without the high pressure, long term = pressure test process....which is beyond my ability?  I hate = the=20 idea of putting these back together and continue to have a = problem......I also=20 hate the idea of the about $400.00 ish each for new plates = :-(  I=20 really thing the side plates are ok IF these grooves are good.  = Any=20 ideas?
 
Next, when we have meticulously = inspected the=20 housings, we seem to see a couple of EXTREMELY slight irregularities = around=20 the edge where the water seal would lay between it and the side = seals. =20 My buddy...a VERY trusted resource, feels this could be enough to = cause a=20 problem. Also, when I broke out the digital calipers I measured = several places=20 around the housings and it seems the thickness around the diameter I = am=20 getting is reading slightly out of spec for differences in thickness = around=20 the housings.
 
Is it proper or even possible to take = these to a=20 machine shop and have them machined smooth and flat?  Or is it = better to=20 just suck it up and buy new housings?  I am about a "wild hair" = away from=20 just giving in and buying two new housing just to get going again and = end all=20 question of them being a future problem....at least for the current=20 reasons.  I hate the idea of throwing money at something that may = be=20 perfectly fine (after all I am not the government) What are y'all's=20 thoughts?
 
As to the O-rings that came out of = the engine for=20 the inner rings there does seem to be some roughness along a couple of = areas=20 on the O-rings.  The areas are about 1.5 inches long, give are = take, and=20 seem to be on a couple of the rings and in about the same area on the = various=20 plates.  This would seem to be indicative to over = heating......Yes,=20 No....?????
 
Also, the price for new = housings from=20 Pineapple Racing (558.00) does not seem too bad (Mazdatrix are = 571.78 w/=20 cash discount).  One of the "features" Pineapple=20 Racing promotes on their site is that they have "machined spark = plug=20 holes" so as to accept alternative plugs.  What the heck is = this?  I=20 hope to get a chance to call them on the morrow but what say = Ye?
 
I tend to kick around the various = ideas before I=20 decide, but as a rule do not knee jerk react to things even though it = may seem=20 this way.  I do not want to drop a grand+ for new housings, but = that may=20 be inevitable.  More so, I don't want to toss an additional $1400 = on new=20 side plates......however, I also want some piece of mind that at least = these=20 issues are addressed.
 
Will love to get your opinions.  = TIA.
 
All the best,
 
Chris
Velocity SE
Houston

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.=20
Version: 7.5.518 / Virus Database: 269.21.7/1324 - Release Date:=20 10/03/2008 7:27 PM
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