X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from py-out-1112.google.com ([64.233.166.176] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2609807 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:08:58 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.166.176; envelope-from=rwstracy@gmail.com Received: by py-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id a25so2016786pyi.7 for ; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:08:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; bh=QIJ5uQolsovtYYEZ1VDBXGiNDTm4gDR3wJ/UUy/CmUM=; b=JxmWFpyEn8P7ug7fT5NgwPtT+qwSG7hZnH2JUGyZyj1YPY2RSAociYiQln0WV9TeXCogBIt3ZGC6i8jSoX7EMlX7/xR1ryVIpSpk+cLHkHLotscWeDeZuj6/k9sRMXCX0wdMyOCnVkV922m+WNbMC61I6h8mUGDk/IflcMSAs2k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:sender:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references:x-google-sender-auth; b=dYZSPmTm3kRxp78JYjzRDbl03Oij4nusPI7harP9LIrpVEkrxnDftEggVTxJbCaGT9+ABm+pduu5XBJgAcC1H2n67pJnmecfaycgNBrHrXx2FSUY5S8NUxgZ8Ey+liz+gX8xjBS/hdnAsY6T1YURPLrM/YOg6tbLs0W5GyeZJOg= Received: by 10.142.212.19 with SMTP id k19mr1096145wfg.200.1198339696969; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:08:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.142.135.10 with HTTP; Sat, 22 Dec 2007 08:08:16 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b4b137c0712220808l58c8a277r6e4a780e30688484@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:08:16 -0500 From: "Tracy Crook" Sender: rwstracy@gmail.com To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EC-2 troubles In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1226_18347800.1198339696949" References: X-Google-Sender-Auth: 9faaec5a5ca33bcc ------=_Part_1226_18347800.1198339696949 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline I'll keep my fingers crossed. You keep yours near the Backup select switch just in case :>) Tracy On Dec 21, 2007 8:10 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > Tracy, > > I ran the engine at various rpm today and tried to duplicate the MAP tabl= e > failure and could not. I tried keying the mic with and without the > transponder on and the engine running at various speeds. I tried various > combinations (IDENT, Standby, ON) and couldn't duplicate the failure. > > So, I relocated the diode from #1 terminal of the SSR to the anode side o= f > the injector diodes, grounded to the water pump housing. Then I installe= d > the two 1uf capacitors to the output terminals of the SSR. I then ran th= e > engine and it performed well, so I decided to test fly it. Again it ran > fine, although it needs a little fine tuning around idle speeds. I will > take care of that tomorrow. > > I plan to fly quite a bit over the next two weeks, and I'm optimistic tha= t > the problem has been resolved (how's that for positive thinking?). I'll = let > you know if this is not the case. > > Thanks for your expert help, > Mark > 12 hrs and counting... > > > > On Dec 20, 2007 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > Tracy, > > > > The injector diodes are physically located near the injectors. So, if = I > > understand you correctly, the clamping diode should be under the cowl c= lose > > to the injector diodes (anodes). > > > > I plan on going out to the airport tomorrow and plan on doing the radio > > test then. I'll let you know how it goes. > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > > > On 12/20/07, Tracy Crook wrote: > > > > > > Hi Mark, > > > Don't think the added diode was ever anywhere else on the schematic > > > but a lot of info gets tossed around on email, phone calls and error, > > > misunderstandings can happen. In this case, I'm not sure what the re= sult of > > > having the diode on the other side of the switch would be, maybe noth= ing. I > > > don't know where you physically located the series diodes in the inje= ctors > > > so location of the added clamp diode depends. It should be somewhere= close > > > to where you tied the 3 anodes of series diodes together. In general= , keep > > > wire lengths to a minimum. > > > > > > Any results from the radio tests? > > > > > > Tracy > > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 7:51 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > > > > > Tracy, > > > > Thanks for the schematic. Did the placement of the diode change > > > > from an earlier version? I currently have the diode attached to th= e SSR. > > > > I'll move it to the other side of the DPDT switch. Or, should this= be > > > > closer to the injectors? > > > > > > > > Also, I'll pick up a couple of capacitors this weekend and install > > > > them between terminals 1 & 2 of the SSR and ground. Hopefully, tha= t will > > > > cure the problem. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your help, > > > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 4:59 PM, Tracy Crook > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > The schematic shows the added diode (cathode) connected to the > > > > > junction of the three series diodes of the secondary injectors (w= here the 3 > > > > > anodes connect together). This junction IS tied to one pole of t= he injector > > > > > switch but NOT tied directly to the SSR. I'll attach the schema= tic again. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a schematic showing the capacitors. I suggested the= m > > > > > as a troubleshooting measure for the suspected noise problem you = are > > > > > seeing. They may or may not have any effect. These two capacito= rs would go > > > > > from the output pins (1 and 2) on the SSR to ground. Value woul= d be > > > > > anywhere in the range of .1uF to 1.0 uF at 200 volts or more. > > > > > > > > > > Tracy > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 5:22 PM, Mark Steitle > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Tracy, > > > > > > Yes, I have installed the diode you sent when you last upgraded > > > > > > my EC-2. It is connected from the secondary injector switch te= rminal of the > > > > > > SSR to ground (going from memory here). I don't recall seeing= a schematic > > > > > > which included capacitors. Can you provide a schematic on this= ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/19/07, Tracy Crook wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > > > > That was an additional CAPACITOR I said to add, (actualy 2 > > > > > > > capacitors). One from each SSR output lead to ground. You sa= id you already > > > > > > > had the diode shown on the schematic, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tracy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 3:47 PM, Mark Steitle > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Al, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why am I just now having this > > > > > > > > problem. I've been flying for 11 hours and this problem ju= st > > > > > > > > recently surfaced. The only change I remember doing recent= ly was replacing > > > > > > > > the electro-mechanical injector staging relay with a solid = state relay. > > > > > > > > Tracy has recommended that I add a second diode from the se= cond output > > > > > > > > terminal of the SSR to ground. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try that, but I will try to reproduce the failure (o= n > > > > > > > > the ground) by triggering the radio, and also turning the t= ransponder from > > > > > > > > off to standby to on. The transponder is the closest piece= of electronic > > > > > > > > gear to the EC-2. As I understand it, the transponder also= puts out much > > > > > > > > more wattage than the nav/com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more possibility is that the tach lead coming from the > > > > > > > > EC-2 is unterminated. I have since learned that it is bad = practice to leave > > > > > > > > wires unterminated. So, I will remedy that this weekend to= o. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I would like to know where the best place would > > > > > > > > be to connect a scope lead on the EC-2 to look for noise. = That seems like > > > > > > > > the easiest way to track down this problem. I will ask Tra= cy for > > > > > > > > suggestions before proceeding with the scope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/17/07, Al Gietzen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have separated the injector wires and the coil wire= s > > > > > > > > > from the rest. There's a ground block located between the= two with a > > > > > > > > > connection through the firewall to another ground block a= nd engine ground. > > > > > > > > > Batteries are in the back though. There's a #2 welding c= able going from the > > > > > > > > > ground block to the battery. It routes down the right si= de away from all > > > > > > > > > the smaller wires. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you say "smaller wires" do you mean current carrying > > > > > > > > > wires that power things, and return current from the alte= rnator =96 or just > > > > > > > > > instrumentation wires? Good practice, especially in a co= mposite plane, is > > > > > > > > > to use twisted pair (power/grnd) to cancel noise. Having = power leads away > > > > > > > > > from the ground return forms a big loop antenna for radia= ting EMF from wires > > > > > > > > > that carry noisy current. I suspect that is not much help= at this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Probably the noisiest wires we have in our planes are the > > > > > > > > > alternator output and the power for the coils and injecto= rs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nav/com is mounted near the EM-2 and could possibly b= e > > > > > > > > > the culprit, based on Al's recommendations. The EM-2 dis= play is right above > > > > > > > > > the nav/com. Maybe I need to move the nav/com to the bac= k of the plane? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Nav/Com itself should not be an issue, the antenna > > > > > > > > > lead should only 'leak' low levels of RF unless the imped= ance match isn't > > > > > > > > > good, or bad connection to the antenna. Is your EM2 disp= lay remote from the > > > > > > > > > Data Acquisition Module? Those leads, the serial leads b= etween the EM2 and > > > > > > > > > EC2, and the power leads to the EC2 should be kept away f= rom the noisy > > > > > > > > > wires. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But then, I'm no expert on this stuff. Tracking down > > > > > > > > > electrical noise takes an expert with an oscilloscope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were on a good track suspecting the solid state relay= if > > > > > > > > > the problem did not occur prior to installing it. You may= need to add > > > > > > > > > snubbers there. Switching relays definitely generates a = noise spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > > > > Archive and UnSub: > > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_1226_18347800.1198339696949 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
I'll keep my fingers crossed.  You keep yours near the Backup= select switch just in case :>)
 
Tracy

On Dec 21, 2007 8:10 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,

I ran the engine a= t various rpm today and tried to duplicate the MAP table failure and could = not.  I tried keying the mic with and without the transponder on and t= he engine running at various speeds.  I tried various combinations (ID= ENT, Standby, ON) and couldn't duplicate the failure.  =20

So, I relocated the diode from #1 terminal of the SSR to the anode = side of the injector diodes, grounded to the water pump housing.  Then= I installed the two 1uf capacitors to the output terminals of the SSR.&nbs= p; I then ran the engine and it performed well, so I decided to test fly it= .  Again it ran fine, although it needs a little fine tuning around id= le speeds.   I will take care of that tomorrow. =20

I plan to fly quite a bit over the next two weeks, and I'm opti= mistic that the problem has been resolved (how's that for positive thin= king?).  I'll let you know if this is not the case. 

= Thanks for your expert help,=20
Mark
12 hrs and counting...



On Dec 20, 2007 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Tracy,
 
The injector diodes are physically located near the injectors.  S= o, if I understand you correctly, the clamping diode should be under the co= wl close to the injector diodes (anodes).
 
I plan on going out to the airport tomorrow and plan on doing the radi= o test then.  I'll let you know how it goes. 
 
Thanks,
Mark
 
On 12/20/07, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:=20
Hi Mark,
Don't think the added diode was ever anywhere else on the schemati= c but a lot of info gets tossed around on email, phone calls and error, mis= understandings can happen.  In this case, I'm not sure what the re= sult of having the diode on the other side of the switch would be, maybe no= thing.  I don't know where you physically located the series diode= s in the injectors so location of the added clamp diode depends.  It s= hould be somewhere close to where you tied the 3 anodes of series diodes to= gether.  In general, keep wire lengths to a minimum.=20
 
Any results from the radio tests?
 
Tracy

 
On Dec 19, 2007 7:51 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Tracy,
Thanks fo= r the schematic.  Did the placement of the diode change from an earlie= r version?  I currently have the diode attached to the SSR.  I= 9;ll move it to the other side of the DPDT switch.  Or, should this be= closer to the injectors? =20

Also, I'll pick up a couple of capacitors this weekend and inst= all them between terminals 1 & 2 of the SSR and ground.  Hopefully= , that will cure the problem. 

Thanks for your help,

M= ark

On Dec 19, 2007 4:59 PM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation= .com> wrote:
The schematic shows the added diode (cathode) connected to the junctio= n of the three series diodes of the secondary injectors (where the 3 a= nodes connect together).  This junction IS tied to one pole = of the injector switch but NOT tied directly to the SSR.   I'= ll attach the schematic again. =20
 
I don't have a schematic showing the capacitors.  I suggested= them as a troubleshooting measure for the suspected noise proble= m you are seeing.  They may or may not have any effect.  These tw= o capacitors would go from the output pins (1 and 2) on the SSR to gro= und.   Value would be anywhere in the range of .1uF to=20 1.0 uF at 200 volts or more.   
 
Tracy
 
On Dec 19, 2007 5:22 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Tracy,
Yes, I have installed the diode you sent when you last upgraded my EC-= 2.  It is connected from the secondary injector switch termi= nal of the SSR to ground (going from memory here).   I don't = recall seeing a schematic which included capacitors.  Can you pro= vide a schematic on this?=20
 
Thanks,
Mark

 
On 12/19/07, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com > wrote:=20
Mark,
  That was an additional CAPACITOR I said to add, (actualy 2 capa= citors).  One from each SSR output lead to ground. You said you a= lready had the diode shown on the schematic, right?
 
Tracy


 
On Dec 19, 2007 3:47 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Al,
 
What I don't understand is why am I just now having this prob= lem.  I've been flying for 11 hours and this problem just recently=  surfaced.  The only change I remember doing recently w= as replacing the electro-mechanical injector staging relay with a solid sta= te relay.  Tracy has recommended that I add a second diode from t= he second output terminal of the SSR to ground. =20
 
I will try that, but I will try to reproduce the failure (on= the ground) by triggering the radio, and also turning the transponder from= off to standby to on.  The transponder is the closest piece of e= lectronic gear to the EC-2.  As I understand it, the transpo= nder also puts out much more wattage than the nav/com.  =20
 
One more possibility is that the tach lead coming from the EC-2 is unt= erminated.  I have since learned that it is bad practic= e to leave wires unterminated.  So, I will remedy that this weekend to= o.   
 
Also, I would like to know where the best place would be to = connect a scope lead on the EC-2 to look for noise.  That seems like t= he easiest way to track down this problem.  I will ask Tracy for = suggestions before proceeding with the scope. =20
 
Mark S.

 
On 12/17/07, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net > wrote:

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">  I have separated the injector wi= res and the coil wires from the rest. There's a ground block locat= ed between the two with a connection through the firewall to another ground= block and engine ground.  Batteries are in the back though.  The= re's a #2 welding cable going from the ground block to the battery.&nbs= p; It routes down the right side away from all the smaller wires. =20

When you say "smaller wire= s" do you mean current carrying wires that power things, and return cu= rrent from the alternator =96 or just instrumentation wires?  Good pra= ctice, especially in a composite plane, is to use twisted pair (power/grnd)= to cancel noise. Having power leads away from the ground return forms a bi= g loop antenna for radiating EMF from wires that carry noisy current. I sus= pect that is not much help at this point.=20

 

Probably the noisiest wires we = have in our planes are the alternator output and the power for the coils an= d injectors.=20

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">The nav/com is mounted near the EM-2 and cou= ld possibly be the culprit, based on Al's recommendations.  The EM= -2 display is right above the nav/com.  Maybe I need to move the nav/c= om to the back of the plane? =20

 

<= /div>

The = Nav/Com itself should not be an issue, the antenna lead should only 'le= ak' low levels of RF unless the impedance match isn't good, or bad = connection to the antenna.  Is your EM2 display remote from the Data A= cquisition Module?  Those leads, the serial leads between the EM2 and = EC2, and the power leads to the EC2 should be kept away from the noisy wire= s.=20

But then, I'm no expert on = this stuff.  Tracking down electrical noise takes an expert with an os= cilloscope.=20

You were on a good track suspec= ting the solid state relay if the problem did = not occur prior to installing it. You may need to add snubbers there. = Switching relays definitely generates a noise spike.=20

Al

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 




<= /div>
 

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