X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.233.178.240] (HELO hs-out-2122.google.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2609130 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 20:11:08 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.178.240; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by hs-out-2122.google.com with SMTP id k27so531706hsc.3 for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:10:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=ONeuP2dzQcB5NR3rywLuZznTryMJTkqdX+OSUBo2BU0=; b=FGehF3IecL6Rn3uEkBjph/QUoBkBKwxTUKgnEwAcn0DlRzumwTJMnyXSi2cGDpjkPhYLdzhOmiYSzossgVegCj4mkKDYUdTzmGkFtHC99kiIcgkQRvvdyKSw8MhFrswWsb+5auxHQJelXDlFLHFnRiJSD5JyRtUpIUUeWGI95iw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=Jh2k7fbw+GVepqUQlTTwCE/j91S6baTok9b1hx/G2c46nlaWNc3pPXnxN0hvgL3nqbAruyfx4e0AQ7p1RkTXf58XihyHFFpPN95Zkfk7yR3I15S9Qlie58gSNSh+uqPIyPSo+65d74cNQjAuMTowK11rRoBYRoI2XWPSYFvtl+Y= Received: by 10.150.192.7 with SMTP id p7mr685745ybf.159.1198285830818; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:10:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.150.178.14 with HTTP; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 17:10:30 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <5cf132c0712211710h4016fc8blebaeaa1b7d333ffe@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 19:10:30 -0600 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: EC-2 troubles In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_867_23172002.1198285830821" References: ------=_Part_867_23172002.1198285830821 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Tracy, I ran the engine at various rpm today and tried to duplicate the MAP table failure and could not. I tried keying the mic with and without the transponder on and the engine running at various speeds. I tried various combinations (IDENT, Standby, ON) and couldn't duplicate the failure. So, I relocated the diode from #1 terminal of the SSR to the anode side of the injector diodes, grounded to the water pump housing. Then I installed the two 1uf capacitors to the output terminals of the SSR. I then ran the engine and it performed well, so I decided to test fly it. Again it ran fine, although it needs a little fine tuning around idle speeds. I will take care of that tomorrow. I plan to fly quite a bit over the next two weeks, and I'm optimistic that the problem has been resolved (how's that for positive thinking?). I'll le= t you know if this is not the case. Thanks for your expert help, Mark 12 hrs and counting... On Dec 20, 2007 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle wrote: > Tracy, > > The injector diodes are physically located near the injectors. So, if I > understand you correctly, the clamping diode should be under the cowl clo= se > to the injector diodes (anodes). > > I plan on going out to the airport tomorrow and plan on doing the radio > test then. I'll let you know how it goes. > > Thanks, > Mark > > On 12/20/07, Tracy Crook wrote: > > > > Hi Mark, > > Don't think the added diode was ever anywhere else on the schematic but > > a lot of info gets tossed around on email, phone calls and error, > > misunderstandings can happen. In this case, I'm not sure what the resu= lt of > > having the diode on the other side of the switch would be, maybe nothin= g. I > > don't know where you physically located the series diodes in the inject= ors > > so location of the added clamp diode depends. It should be somewhere c= lose > > to where you tied the 3 anodes of series diodes together. In general, = keep > > wire lengths to a minimum. > > > > Any results from the radio tests? > > > > Tracy > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 7:51 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > > > Tracy, > > > Thanks for the schematic. Did the placement of the diode change from > > > an earlier version? I currently have the diode attached to the SSR. = I'll > > > move it to the other side of the DPDT switch. Or, should this be clo= ser to > > > the injectors? > > > > > > Also, I'll pick up a couple of capacitors this weekend and install > > > them between terminals 1 & 2 of the SSR and ground. Hopefully, that = will > > > cure the problem. > > > > > > Thanks for your help, > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 4:59 PM, Tracy Crook wrote= : > > > > > > > The schematic shows the added diode (cathode) connected to the > > > > junction of the three series diodes of the secondary injectors (whe= re the 3 > > > > anodes connect together). This junction IS tied to one pole of the= injector > > > > switch but NOT tied directly to the SSR. I'll attach the schemati= c again. > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't have a schematic showing the capacitors. I suggested them > > > > as a troubleshooting measure for the suspected noise problem you ar= e > > > > seeing. They may or may not have any effect. These two capacitors= would go > > > > from the output pins (1 and 2) on the SSR to ground. Value would = be > > > > anywhere in the range of .1uF to 1.0 uF at 200 volts or more. > > > > > > > > Tracy > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 5:22 PM, Mark Steitle wrote: > > > > > > > > > Tracy, > > > > > Yes, I have installed the diode you sent when you last upgraded m= y > > > > > EC-2. It is connected from the secondary injector switch termina= l of the > > > > > SSR to ground (going from memory here). I don't recall seeing a= schematic > > > > > which included capacitors. Can you provide a schematic on this? > > > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/19/07, Tracy Crook wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > > > That was an additional CAPACITOR I said to add, (actualy 2 > > > > > > capacitors). One from each SSR output lead to ground. You said= you already > > > > > > had the diode shown on the schematic, right? > > > > > > > > > > > > Tracy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 19, 2007 3:47 PM, Mark Steitle > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Al, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What I don't understand is why am I just now having this > > > > > > > problem. I've been flying for 11 hours and this problem just > > > > > > > recently surfaced. The only change I remember doing recently= was replacing > > > > > > > the electro-mechanical injector staging relay with a solid st= ate relay. > > > > > > > Tracy has recommended that I add a second diode from the seco= nd output > > > > > > > terminal of the SSR to ground. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I will try that, but I will try to reproduce the failure (on > > > > > > > the ground) by triggering the radio, and also turning the tra= nsponder from > > > > > > > off to standby to on. The transponder is the closest piece o= f electronic > > > > > > > gear to the EC-2. As I understand it, the transponder also p= uts out much > > > > > > > more wattage than the nav/com. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One more possibility is that the tach lead coming from the > > > > > > > EC-2 is unterminated. I have since learned that it is bad pr= actice to leave > > > > > > > wires unterminated. So, I will remedy that this weekend too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, I would like to know where the best place would > > > > > > > be to connect a scope lead on the EC-2 to look for noise. Th= at seems like > > > > > > > the easiest way to track down this problem. I will ask Tracy= for > > > > > > > suggestions before proceeding with the scope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark S. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 12/17/07, Al Gietzen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I have separated the injector wires and the coil wires > > > > > > > > from the rest. There's a ground block located between the t= wo with a > > > > > > > > connection through the firewall to another ground block and= engine ground. > > > > > > > > Batteries are in the back though. There's a #2 welding cab= le going from the > > > > > > > > ground block to the battery. It routes down the right side= away from all > > > > > > > > the smaller wires. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When you say "smaller wires" do you mean current carrying > > > > > > > > wires that power things, and return current from the altern= ator =96 or just > > > > > > > > instrumentation wires? Good practice, especially in a comp= osite plane, is > > > > > > > > to use twisted pair (power/grnd) to cancel noise. Having po= wer leads away > > > > > > > > from the ground return forms a big loop antenna for radiati= ng EMF from wires > > > > > > > > that carry noisy current. I suspect that is not much help a= t this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Probably the noisiest wires we have in our planes are the > > > > > > > > alternator output and the power for the coils and injectors= . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The nav/com is mounted near the EM-2 and could possibly be > > > > > > > > the culprit, based on Al's recommendations. The EM-2 displ= ay is right above > > > > > > > > the nav/com. Maybe I need to move the nav/com to the back = of the plane? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The Nav/Com itself should not be an issue, the antenna lead > > > > > > > > should only 'leak' low levels of RF unless the impedance ma= tch isn't good, > > > > > > > > or bad connection to the antenna. Is your EM2 display remo= te from the Data > > > > > > > > Acquisition Module? Those leads, the serial leads between = the EM2 and EC2, > > > > > > > > and the power leads to the EC2 should be kept away from the= noisy wires. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But then, I'm no expert on this stuff. Tracking down > > > > > > > > electrical noise takes an expert with an oscilloscope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You were on a good track suspecting the solid state relay i= f > > > > > > > > the problem did not occur prior to installing it. You may n= eed to add > > > > > > > > snubbers there. Switching relays definitely generates a no= ise spike. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Al > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > > > > Archive and UnSub: > > > > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_Part_867_23172002.1198285830821 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Tracy,

I ran the engine at various rpm today and tried to duplicate = the MAP table failure and could not.  I tried keying the mic with and = without the transponder on and the engine running at various speeds.  = I tried various combinations (IDENT, Standby, ON) and couldn't duplicat= e the failure.   =20

So, I relocated the diode from #1 terminal of the SSR to the anode = side of the injector diodes, grounded to the water pump housing.  Then= I installed the two 1uf capacitors to the output terminals of the SSR.&nbs= p; I then ran the engine and it performed well, so I decided to test fly it= .  Again it ran fine, although it needs a little fine tuning around id= le speeds.   I will take care of that tomorrow. =20

I plan to fly quite a bit over the next two weeks, and I'm opti= mistic that the problem has been resolved (how's that for positive thin= king?).  I'll let you know if this is not the case. 

= Thanks for your expert help,
Mark
12 hrs and counting...



On Dec 20, 2007 8:00 AM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:
Tracy,
 
The injector diodes are physically located near the injectors.  S= o, if I understand you correctly, the clamping diode should be under the co= wl close to the injector diodes (anodes).
 
I plan on going out to the airport tomorrow and plan on doing the radi= o test then.  I'll let you know how it goes. 
 
Thanks,
Mark
 
On 12/20/07, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com> wrote:
Hi Mark,
Don't think the added diode was ever anywhere else on the schemati= c but a lot of info gets tossed around on email, phone calls and error, mis= understandings can happen.  In this case, I'm not sure what the re= sult of having the diode on the other side of the switch would be, maybe no= thing.  I don't know where you physically located the series diode= s in the injectors so location of the added clamp diode depends.  It s= hould be somewhere close to where you tied the 3 anodes of series diodes to= gether.  In general, keep wire lengths to a minimum.=20
 
Any results from the radio tests?
 
Tracy

 
On Dec 19, 2007 7:51 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Tracy,
Thanks= for the schematic.  Did the placement of the diode change from an ear= lier version?  I currently have the diode attached to the SSR.  I= 'll move it to the other side of the DPDT switch.  Or, should this= be closer to the injectors? =20

Also, I'll pick up a couple of capacitors this weekend and inst= all them between terminals 1 & 2 of the SSR and ground.  Hopefully= , that will cure the problem. 

Thanks for your help,

M= ark

On Dec 19, 2007 4:59 PM, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation= .com> wrote:
The schematic shows the added diode (cathode) connected to the junctio= n of the three series diodes of the secondary injectors (where the 3 a= nodes connect together).  This junction IS tied to one pole = of the injector switch but NOT tied directly to the SSR.   I'= ll attach the schematic again. =20
 
I don't have a schematic showing the capacitors.  I suggested= them as a troubleshooting measure for the suspected noise proble= m you are seeing.  They may or may not have any effect.  These tw= o capacitors would go from the output pins (1 and 2) on the SSR to gro= und.   Value would be anywhere in the range of .1uF to=20 1.0 uF at 200 volts or more.   
 
Tracy
 
On Dec 19, 2007 5:22 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Tracy,
Yes, I have installed the diode you sent when you last upgraded my EC-= 2.  It is connected from the secondary injector switch termi= nal of the SSR to ground (going from memory here).   I don't = recall seeing a schematic which included capacitors.  Can you pro= vide a schematic on this?=20
 
Thanks,
Mark

 
On 12/19/07, Tracy Crook <tracy@rotaryaviation.com > wrote:=20
Mark,
  That was an additional CAPACITOR I said to add, (actualy 2 capa= citors).  One from each SSR output lead to ground. You said you a= lready had the diode shown on the schematic, right?
 
Tracy


 
On Dec 19, 2007 3:47 PM, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
Al,
 
What I don't understand is why am I just now having this prob= lem.  I've been flying for 11 hours and this problem just recently=  surfaced.  The only change I remember doing recently w= as replacing the electro-mechanical injector staging relay with a solid sta= te relay.  Tracy has recommended that I add a second diode from t= he second output terminal of the SSR to ground. =20
 
I will try that, but I will try to reproduce the failure (on= the ground) by triggering the radio, and also turning the transponder from= off to standby to on.  The transponder is the closest piece of e= lectronic gear to the EC-2.  As I understand it, the transpo= nder also puts out much more wattage than the nav/com.  =20
 
One more possibility is that the tach lead coming from the EC-2 is unt= erminated.  I have since learned that it is bad practic= e to leave wires unterminated.  So, I will remedy that this weekend to= o.   
 
Also, I would like to know where the best place would be to = connect a scope lead on the EC-2 to look for noise.  That seems like t= he easiest way to track down this problem.  I will ask Tracy for = suggestions before proceeding with the scope. =20
 
Mark S.

 
On 12/17/07, Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net > wrote:

=   I have separated the injector = wires and the coil wires from the rest. There's a ground block loc= ated between the two with a connection through the firewall to another grou= nd block and engine ground.  Batteries are in the back though.  T= here's a #2 welding cable going from the ground block to the battery.&n= bsp; It routes down the right side away from all the smaller wires. = =20

When you say "smaller wir= es" do you mean current carrying wires that power things, and return c= urrent from the alternator =96 or just instrumentation wires?  Good pr= actice, especially in a composite plane, is to use twisted pair (power/grnd= ) to cancel noise. Having power leads away from the ground return forms a b= ig loop antenna for radiating EMF from wires that carry noisy current. I su= spect that is not much help at this point.=20

 

Probably the noisiest wires we= have in our planes are the alternator output and the power for the coils a= nd injectors.=20

=  

= The nav/com is mounted near the EM-2 and c= ould possibly be the culprit, based on Al's recommendations.  The = EM-2 display is right above the nav/com.  Maybe I need to move the nav= /com to the back of the plane? =20

 

=

= The Nav/Com itself should not be an issue, the antenna lead should only = 9;leak' low levels of RF unless the impedance match isn't good, or = bad connection to the antenna.  Is your EM2 display remote from the Da= ta Acquisition Module?  Those leads, the serial leads between the EM2 = and EC2, and the power leads to the EC2 should be kept away from the noisy = wires.=20

But then, I'm no expert on= this stuff.  Tracking down electrical noise takes an expert with an o= scilloscope.=20

You were on a good track suspe= cting the solid state relay if the problem did= not occur prior to installing it. You may need to add snubbers there. = ; Switching relays definitely generates a noise spike.=20

Al

=  





 

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