X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.120] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with ESMTP id 2608646 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:22:32 -0500 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=75.180.132.120; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 ([24.74.103.61]) by cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com with SMTP id <20071221182152.JXKZ29372.cdptpa-omta04.mail.rr.com@edward2> for ; Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:21:52 +0000 Message-ID: <001b01c843fe$658a3650$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: superchargers electric Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 13:22:08 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0018_01C843D4.7C8492D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C843D4.7C8492D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't know, Bob. I was prepared to believe you using the reliable = Hoover turbocharger vacuum system - but, now that you tell me it was a = Kirby, well...... {:>) IF only increasing the air flow volume or velocity would push = significantly more air into the same displacement area all of these = claims would be more believable. But, the only way I am aware to = mechanically increase the amount of air in the same volume is to = increase its density (which results in higher pressure of course) by in = effect compressing it. When you have a pump doing this it has to be = fast and has to be able to resist the back flow from the higher pressure = area. Positive displacement pumps such as the roots roller or the screw = types can do this at slower speeds but generally with less efficiency = and require a bit more power. The centrifugal pump generally has to = spin faster and requires precision impeller blades and diffusers. You can make more power chemically as George suggested using Nitrous = Oxide and perhaps other drag racer type fuels containing oxiders, but = just sending a stream of higher velocity air into the intake at the = rates mentioned simply won't do it.=20 You might gain a small amount due to the kinetic energy (Dynamic = pressure) of the fast flowing air converting to a static pressure = increase, but not anything approach several inches. If all the kinetic = energy of a 350 mph wind stream were converted to static pressure you = would get around 2 psi of pressure increase. It would, of course, have = to also have to be of sufficient airflow volume (CFM) to stuff a = manifold worth of air to a 2 psi increase - all the time the engine is = sucking down the pressure in the manifold. =20 I won't say it can not be done, but I don't see how Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: bmears9413@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 10:30 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: superchargers electric OOPs...it was a Kirby vacuum cleaner. bm -----Original Message----- From: bmears9413@aol.com To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Fri, 21 Dec 2007 8:29 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: superchargers electric ED, I built and electric supercharger back in 1980 that would produce = about 3 lbs. of boost. It was built from a Hoover vacuum cleaner. Even = then the high output motor was over a hundred bucks. I wired it direct = to the alternator (back the they were external volt regs) and ran it off = 110 volts. Still have it. Would make a significant difference in the = performance of a GLC! Bob Mears -----Original Message----- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 1:01 pm Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: superchargers electric Well, I have already confessed my skepticism - however, its really = hard to say. One thing in their favor, they appear to be using a = centrifugal pump with a scroll diffuser very similar to that on a turbo = charger. Meaning that if indeed they can spin it fast enough it should = work. Now one of the individuals on their forum indicated they = measured its spin at 25000 rpm. That's a bit slow for a turbocharger = but, it may indeed be enough to produce some boost. =20 We all know that motors and electric devices have made some major = improvements in the last decade or so, but still a 1 1/2 HP electric = motor just seems a bit on the large size physically and what really = bothers me is no specifications on their web site. Hard to assess = and/or refute data you don't have {:>). But, what really bothers me is I just don't see how you could even = manufacture the scroll housing and compressor blades much less a 1 - 1 = 1/2HP electric motor and sell it for $99.00 - even if made in China. I = really want to believe - but, its sure is hard to find any data to help = that belief along {:>). I guess IF I really thought it was credible, I would have my $99.00 = check in the mail and I don't. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: John Downing=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 1:22 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] superchargers electric Ed, this thread is starting to look like the electric water pump = thread that can't work. I just have a feeling that your inquisitive = mind is going to go somewhere with this one. JohnD -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail! ------=_NextPart_000_0018_01C843D4.7C8492D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't know, Bob.  I was prepared to = believe you=20 using the reliable Hoover turbocharger vacuum system - but, now that you = tell me=20 it was a Kirby, well...... {:>)
 
IF only increasing the air flow volume or = velocity would=20 push significantly more air into the same displacement area all of these = claims=20 would be more believable.  But, the only way I am aware to = mechanically=20 increase the amount of air in the same volume is to increase its density = (which=20 results in higher pressure of course) by in effect compressing it.  = When=20 you have a pump doing this it has to be fast and has to be able to = resist the=20 back flow from the higher pressure area.  Positive displacement = pumps such=20 as the roots roller or the screw types can do this at slower speeds but=20 generally with less efficiency and require a bit more power.  The=20 centrifugal pump generally has to spin faster and requires precision = impeller=20 blades and diffusers.
 
You can make more power chemically as George = suggested=20 using Nitrous Oxide and perhaps other drag racer type fuels containing = oxiders,=20 but just sending a stream of higher velocity air into the intake at the = rates=20 mentioned simply won't do it. 
 
 You might gain a small amount due to the = kinetic=20 energy (Dynamic pressure) of the fast flowing air converting to a static = pressure increase, but not anything approach several inches.  If = all the=20 kinetic energy of a 350 mph wind stream were converted to static = pressure you=20 would get around 2 psi of pressure increase.  It would, of course, = have to=20 also have to be of sufficient airflow volume (CFM) to stuff a manifold = worth of=20 air to a 2 psi increase - all the time the engine is sucking down the = pressure=20 in the manifold.  
 
I won't say it can not be done, but I don't see=20 how
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 bmears9413@aol.com
Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 = 10:30=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = superchargers=20 electric

OOPs...it was a Kirby vacuum=20 cleaner.
bm


-----Original Message-----
From: bmears9413@aol.com
To: = Rotary motors=20 in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Fri, 21 Dec 2007 8:29 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: superchargers=20 electric

ED,
I built and electric supercharger back in 1980 that would produce = about 3=20 lbs. of boost. It was built from a Hoover vacuum cleaner. Even then = the high=20 output motor was over a hundred bucks. I wired it direct to the = alternator=20 (back the they were external volt regs) and ran it off 110 volts. = Still have=20 it. Would make a significant difference in the performance of a = GLC!
 
Bob Mears


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed = Anderson=20 <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Thu, 20 Dec 2007 1:01 pm
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: superchargers=20 electric

Well, I have already confessed my skepticism - = however,=20 its really hard to say.  One thing in their favor, they appear to = be=20 using a centrifugal pump with a scroll diffuser very similar to that = on a=20 turbo charger.  Meaning that if indeed they can spin it fast = enough it=20 should work.  Now one of the individuals on their  forum = indicated=20 they measured its spin at 25000 rpm.  That's a bit slow for a=20 turbocharger but, it may indeed be enough to produce some boost.  =
 
We all know that motors and electric devices = have made=20 some major improvements in the last decade or so, but still a 1 1/2 HP = electric motor just seems a bit on the large size physically and what = really=20 bothers me is no specifications on their web site.  Hard to = assess and/or=20 refute data you don't have {:>).
 
But, what really bothers me is I just don't = see how you=20 could even manufacture the scroll housing and compressor blades much = less a 1=20 - 1 1/2HP electric motor and sell it for $99.00 - even if made in = China. =20 I really want to believe - but, its sure is hard to find any data to = help that=20 belief along {:>).
 
I guess IF I really thought it was credible, I = would=20 have my $99.00 check in the mail and I don't.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 John=20 Downing
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Thursday, December 20, = 2007 1:22=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] = superchargers=20 electric

Ed, this thread is starting to look = like the=20 electric water pump thread that can't work.  I just have a = feeling that=20 your inquisitive mind is going to go somewhere with this one. =20 JohnD
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