X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from smtp116.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com ([66.196.96.89] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.2c1) with SMTP id 2607077 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:13:13 -0500 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=66.196.96.89; envelope-from=downing.j@sbcglobal.net Received: (qmail 89481 invoked from network); 20 Dec 2007 18:12:34 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=Received:X-YMail-OSG:Message-ID:From:To:References:Subject:Date:MIME-Version:Content-Type:X-Priority:X-MSMail-Priority:X-Mailer:X-MimeOLE; b=xlVdibUoM1CZwhZgVIwAtb0aszm94QuanEaMLKmlo+9Whd5HhjVpum/2sEj6YM2xs9kyzktDYKtS9V6wh038js96VTpTjqcpxd1se+k5i3u4tzEF8YEZeCeA3VEiN+vGvy7vTI+TjtLAoZdkujonhShspmYtX54ZewibL8H/fDU= ; Received: from unknown (HELO mom) (downing.j@sbcglobal.net@75.41.5.19 with login) by smtp116.sbc.mail.re3.yahoo.com with SMTP; 20 Dec 2007 18:12:34 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: Hq9DBS0VM1lWNaJ3HGSXKtJ4Snu13Em6JdYWNc.n13lPE_6.dpeuWgN3_K.WfOWdJI..ItZsmyRLkT03q1C.bPpnzw-- Message-ID: <002601c84334$9a648b20$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> From: "John Downing" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Degrees overlap Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:17:37 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0023_01C8430A.B0F8F9E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1409 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1409 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C8430A.B0F8F9E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lynn, I love your ideas, too bad you don't have an up to the minute = machine shop and a power ball winner for a little seed money. JohnD ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Lehanover@aol.com=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:24 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Degrees overlap In a message dated 12/20/2007 6:19:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, = tracy@rotaryaviation.com writes: I got all that except for the intake air being heated by the = headers. Might be great for efficiency but wouldn't the resulting drop = in density reduce maximum power? I do remember Smoky Ys' engine but I = never got an answer to the obvious question. If it's so great, why = doesn't everybody do that? It would be so easy and cheap to do.=20 Tracy One of Smoky's things was to coat the inside of aluminum heads with = water glass, to prevent the transfer of heat into the coolant. This = is/was the reverse of most thinking, particularly in racing engines. The = idea was that even the relatively small area involved would remove too = much energy from the mixture prior to ignition. Our Genius (the Wile E. Coyote definition) Leaders in Washington have = just mandated 35 MPG for all cars. Why they didn't "drop the other shoe" = and mandate goodness and mercy for all of earth, along with 74 degrees = everywhere and a free Coke every day, and good health and happiness. But = the year isn't over yet, and once they see other great ideas like this = they can scrape together another dose of Opiate for the = masses.........sound familiar?=20 With its very large combustion chamber the rotary will lag behind the = piston engine in efficient burning of the mixture, and has always had = that excess HC problem. The early rotaries had doubled side seals, and I = see a return to that, along with a dykes shape self pressurizing side = seal. So that the highest drag is limited to the area of highest = cylinder pressure. I suspect the work on insulating ceramic coatings = will be getting far more work than in the past. It is common in racing = engines, as is Teflon plates on the thrust sides of pistons, as well as = ceramic coating on the domes. In the short term no new materials = research is required.=20 In the IMSA GTP series, BF Goodrich sponsored a pair of Lola 616 = Chassis with Polymotor research engines. They had steel cranks and = fasteners and iron camshafts. Everything else was ceramic or plastic. Close to 300 HP. In the 80s........... So why are we so late to the dance.....Again?....... The computer and = bean counters. Followed by big corps with committees of lawyers calling = the dance instead of a gifted car nut with the disposition of a stepped = on snake.=20 Here is just one of thousands of examples: =20 A friend who races a Ford probe in GT-3, and kicks our butts every = weekend, works in Detroit as a drive-line engineer for GM. ??? yet races = a Ford. There are few engineers left in his division. Drive line = problems are called in to an engineering company in India. They then = produce whatever the Indians say is the answer to that problem. A few = years back when the price of aluminum began to climb, somebody got the = idea of making pistons shorter. So the bean counters with the fast = computers come up with the cash savings, and it is a bunch. And what = could be better than trying it on one of the highest production numbers = engine in the building, instead of the lowest, to limit damage should a = problem crop up?=20 So with not nearly enough testing, GM shortened the piston skirts on = every Small Block V-8 they built that year. As though the old retired = engineers who had done all of the work on this engine had been = imbeciles, And GM had just now discovered this fact, and had now = corrected 55 years of giving away huge amounts of aluminum for no good = reason.=20 So, they put 2 new engines in very nearly every vehicle with that = short piston. Near the end of the first year, the ones that had seen = hard use, as in pickup trucks were coming back with a knock when cold. = It was not such a big deal for the new suicide door equipped pickups = with no pillar for striker plates, because they went into production = without passing an important test for retention in an accident, so they = were in the dealer to get Government mandated, improved door latches = anyway. So a new engine (with the new longer piston idea) was just one = extra day.=20 So why is GM in deep dodo? They need a Clarence Kelly Johnson car nut = to build cars.=20 So where is the work on the coaxial injector/spark plug being done? = And shouldn't the tiny air compressors used on Formula one cars to power = the valves be connected to blow in a whopping dose of air along with = that fuel? Well I think so. If you don't like that can we bleed = combustion pressure from the other housing through the new injector to = improve heat, atomization and reduce NOX.=20 So rather than making a fuel/air mixture elsewhere and dragging it = past the plugs at 100 MPH and complaining about HC problems, let us = inject our burning mixture into the hottest possible compressed air we = can make, and do it between the current plug locations. You cannot = detonate it when all of the fuel is in one location. And if it cannot = detonate how much boost could it stand? High boost with no = inter-cooler? Throw me in that brier patch.=20 That rotor is only turning 2,000 RPM. There is plenty of = time............We can do this. For airplanes we would leave off the heated air part, and suffer the = slightly lower mileage and higher power.=20 Lynn E. Hanover =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for winter. ------=_NextPart_000_0023_01C8430A.B0F8F9E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lynn, I love your ideas, too bad you don't have an up to the minute = machine=20 shop and a power ball winner for a little seed money.  JohnD
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Lehanover@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, December 20, = 2007 10:24=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Degrees=20 overlap

In a message dated 12/20/2007 6:19:47 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, = tracy@rotaryaviation.com=20 writes:
I got all that except for the intake air being heated by the=20 headers.  Might be great for efficiency but wouldn't the = resulting drop=20 in density reduce maximum power?  I do remember Smoky Ys' = engine but I=20 never got an answer to the obvious question.  If it's so great, = why=20 doesn't everybody do that?  It would be so easy and cheap to = do.
 
Tracy
One of Smoky's things was to coat the inside of aluminum heads = with water=20 glass, to prevent the transfer of heat into the coolant. This is/was = the=20 reverse of most thinking, particularly in racing engines. The idea was = that=20 even the relatively small area involved would remove too much energy = from the=20 mixture prior to ignition.
 
Our Genius (the Wile E. = Coyote=20 definition) Leaders in Washington have just mandated 35 MPG for = all cars.=20 Why they didn't "drop the other shoe" and mandate goodness and mercy = for all=20 of earth, along with 74 degrees everywhere and a free Coke every day, = and good=20 health and happiness. But the year isn't over yet, and once they see = other=20 great ideas like this they can scrape together another dose of Opiate = for the=20 masses.........sound familiar?
 
With its very large combustion chamber the rotary will lag behind = the=20 piston engine in efficient  burning of the mixture, and has = always had=20 that excess HC problem. The early rotaries had doubled side seals, and = I see a=20 return to that, along with a dykes shape self pressurizing side seal. = So that=20 the highest drag is limited to the area of highest cylinder pressure. = I=20 suspect the work on insulating ceramic coatings will be getting far = more work=20 than in the past. It is common in racing engines, as is Teflon plates = on the=20 thrust sides of pistons, as well as ceramic coating on the domes. In = the short=20 term no new materials research is required.
 
In the IMSA GTP series, BF Goodrich sponsored a pair of Lola 616 = Chassis=20 with Polymotor research engines. They had steel cranks and fasteners = and iron=20 camshafts. Everything else was ceramic or plastic.
Close to 300 HP. In the 80s...........
 
So why are we so late to the=20 dance.....Again?....... The computer and bean=20 counters. Followed by big corps with committees of = lawyers calling=20 the dance instead of a gifted car nut with the disposition of a = stepped on=20 snake.
 
Here is just one of thousands of = examples:   
A friend who races a Ford probe in GT-3, and kicks our butts = every=20 weekend, works in Detroit as a drive-line engineer for GM. ??? yet = races a=20 Ford. There are few engineers left in his division. Drive line = problems are=20 called in to an engineering company in India. They then produce = whatever the=20 Indians say is the answer to that problem. A few years back when the = price of=20 aluminum began to climb, somebody got the idea of making pistons = shorter. So=20 the bean counters with the fast computers come up with the cash = savings, and=20 it is a bunch. And what could be better than trying it on one of the = highest=20 production numbers engine in the building, instead of the lowest, to = limit=20 damage should a problem crop up?
 
So with not nearly enough testing, GM shortened the piston skirts = on every Small Block V-8 they built that year. As though the old = retired=20 engineers who had done all of the work on this engine had been = imbeciles, And=20 GM had just now discovered this fact, and had now corrected 55 years = of giving=20 away huge amounts of aluminum for no good reason.
 
So, they put 2 new engines in very nearly every vehicle with that = short=20 piston. Near the end of the first year, the ones that had seen hard = use, as in=20 pickup trucks were coming back with a knock when cold. It was not = such a=20 big deal for the new suicide door equipped pickups with no pillar for = striker=20 plates, because they went into production without passing an important = test=20 for retention in an accident, so they were in the dealer to get = Government=20 mandated, improved door latches anyway. So a new engine (with the new = longer=20 piston idea) was just one extra day.
 
So why is GM in deep dodo? They need a Clarence Kelly = Johnson car=20 nut to build cars.
 
So where is the work on the coaxial injector/spark plug being = done? And=20 shouldn't the tiny air compressors used on Formula one cars to power = the=20 valves be connected to blow in a whopping dose of air along with that = fuel?=20   Well I think so. If you don't like that can we bleed = combustion=20 pressure from the other housing through the new injector to = improve=20 heat, atomization and reduce NOX. 
 
So rather than making a fuel/air mixture elsewhere and dragging = it past=20 the plugs at 100 MPH and complaining about HC problems, let us = inject our=20 burning mixture into the hottest possible compressed air we can make, = and do=20 it between the current plug locations. You cannot detonate it when all = of the=20 fuel is in one location. And if it cannot detonate how much boost = could it=20 stand?  High boost with no inter-cooler?
 
Throw me in that brier patch. 
 
That rotor is only turning 2,000 RPM. There is plenty of=20 time............We can do this.
 
For airplanes we would leave off the heated air part, and suffer = the=20 slightly lower mileage and higher power.
 
 
Lynn E.=20 Hanover      



See AOL's top rated recipes and easy ways to stay in shape for=20 winter.
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