Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 7:01 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting
> Ed,
> Yes, crank angle sensor. I couldn't think of the correct name for it when
> I
> wrote the email.
> The odd thing is when I have gotten it running, it runs very rich. I have
> to turn the control very lean to get it to run correctly at all.
>
> I guess that I'll know more once I try it with a fully charged battery.
> I'll verify that I have voltage to both injectors. They are high
> impedance,
> and are MSD injectors with about 50 hours on them. I replaced the
> original
> Mazda injectors early on, when I had problems that turned out to be the
> fuel
> regulator.
>
> I have not experienced problems like this getting the engine started. Not
> when I first put it together. Nor when I rebuilt the engine after the
> first
> 20 hours of flying the used engine. This is much harder to figure out
> than
> the usual go - no go problems.
>
> Regards,
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:
flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
> Behalf Of Ed Anderson
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 5:47 PM
> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> Ok, recommend that you send your EC2 back to Tracy for those simulation
> mods
> as they really help in trouble shooting. Having a fully charged battery
> (or
> two in you location) will help.
>
> Back firing could indicated too lean and/or as you suggested a ignition
> timing problem. One possibility that comes to mind is for you to check
> and
> make certain you have voltage to both your primary and secondary
> injectors.
> Since you do not have the injector disable switches, I would presume you
> have 12VDC wire to your injectors continuously (well, with the master
> switch
> or some other switch controlling it ON/OFF).
>
> Check to make certain you have 12 volts on all 4 injectors. If for some
> reason your primary did not have voltage, you would probably still get
> some
> fuel into the system because when you first start to crank you manifold
> pressure is 29.92" HG (or thereabouts) which would cause the system to use
> all 4 injectors to inject fuel until the rotation had pulled the manifold
> pressure lower. So you secondary's might give you enough to get a pop or
> two. But, if you primary did not have voltage they would not support your
> low rpm/idle regime - but, it would probably run on the secondary without
> any problem once you were up and running.
> Also it would probably act very lean if the primaries were not functioning
> properly.
>
> Do you have low impedance or high impedance injectors - if low impedance,
> then you should have 4 resistors in line with your 4 fuel injection wires
> if
> for some reason one or both of the primary wire resisters opened up that
> could cause a lean condition.
>
> When you say you have an electronic distributor - are you referring to
> your
> CrankAngle sensor in the distributor housing? Or do you really have a
> separate electronic ignition?
>
> Ed
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Brooks" <
cozy4pilot@gmail.com>
> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <
flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2007 3:57 PM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting
>
>
>> Ed,
>> I made it to the airport today, finally. I'm not sure when the test
>> options
>> were added, but my controller does not seem to do either the injector
>> test,
>> or the ignition test.
>>
>> I did pull the controller out, and the MAP tubes were firmly in place. I
>> did switch around the tubes on the controllers, but it still acted the
>> same
>> when trying to start.
>>
>> After trying unsuccessfully to start the engine, the battery starting
>> going
>> dead after only about 30 seconds of cranking total. I suspect for one,
>> that
>> my battery is not charged very good. Since the plane is on the ramp, and
>> I
>> have to push it about 100 yards to a power outlet, I pulled the battery
>> out,
>> brought it out and put it on the charger.
>>
>> One thing that I did notice today, and also previously, but forgot to
>> mention, is that the engine will fire one pop about every revolution, but
>> also backfires at times. .I wonder if it could be a timing issue. I
>> checked the distributor (solid state ignition), and it is still locked
>> down
>> where it was, which is about mid range of the adjustment/ I didn't pull
>> the
>> cover off of it, but I did examine the wiring. Everything seemed to be
>> in
>> tact still.
>>
>> I'm planning on trying it again tomorrow with a fully charged batter. I
>> may
>> also put the EC-2 back to default, just in case something strange
>> happened
>> to the programming. That's easy to do, and it doesn't really take too
>> much
>> to re-tune it afterwards.
>>
>> Steve Brooks
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:
flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On
>> Behalf Of Ed Anderson
>> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 11:23 AM
>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting
>>
>> Yes, Steve, I would think pulling a CB for the injectors should disable a
>> set, so you might try that.
>>
>> The mode 1 Injector simulation goes like this.
>>
>> Turn off power to your pumps, turn on power to you EC2 and injectors.
>> Turn
>> you mode switch to mode 1 and push the program store button. The EC2 will
>> generate pulses to the injectors equivalent to the engine running at
>> around
>> 4000 rpm. You can definitely hear the injectors clicking away madly
>> (that's
>> the reason you want the fuel pumps off or you will truly flood the
>> engine -
>> don't ask me how I know)
>> You get out the simulation mode by switching to a different mode or
>> turning
>> off the power to the EC2.
>>
>> Similarly with the ignition testing. Turn your mode selector to mode 8
>> and
>> press the program store button. It should trigger both ignition modules
>> until turned off.
>>
>> One thing to be careful of is when using the ignition simulation, it is
>> possible to fire off any combustible mixture you might have in the
>> chamber.
>> I have notice the engine fire and the blade swing - so if you had a lot
>> of
>> fuel in your intake manifold (after say flooding the engine) it might be
>> theoretically possible for the engine to fire and suck in sufficient fuel
>> to
>> turn the blades over several times. So as always treat a prop like its
>> running (even when it isn't {:>))
>>
>> The safer way would be to test your ignition BEFORE you test your
>> injectors.
>>
>> These simulation modes only work when the engine is NOT running.
>>
>> Yes, hard to tell about compression without an expensive Mazda Shop
>> tester.
>> But, I have noticed that if there is a compression problem you will
>> normally
>> see things bouncing around the same. If you notice some differences
>> (especially between the rotors) by the needle swing - it could indicate a
>> problem.
>>
>> Hope some of this helps you get to the root of the problem. I agree with
>> Al
>> and Bob, the turbo will have no effect on your start up. Now if ran too
>> much boost that could possibly damage seals and therefore lower
>> compression,
>> but I know you are very conservative about boost.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ED
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Brooks" <
cozy4pilot@gmail.com>
>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <
flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:48 AM
>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting
>>
>>
>>> Hi Ed,
>>> Some very good tips. Unfortunately I did not install the injector
>>> switches.
>>> I viewed that as another failure point. I did wire my injector power on
>>> separate breakers though, so there may be an option there.
>>>
>>> Compression seems to be good, with even pops as I rotate through the
>>> prop.
>>> I'm not sure about the reading though. My compression gauge doesn't
>>> seem
>>> to
>>> be working correctly as far as holding the peak compression. Watching
>>> the
>>> needle bounce looks consistent on each pulse, but since all of my
>>> historical
>>> data was on peak hold, it doesn't tell me much. The little needle valve
>>> seems to be the issue. I tried replacing it with on from AutoZone, but
>>> it
>>> was destroyed on the first test.
>>>
>>> On the injector test, and ignition test, I'm not sure that I have those
>>> features, or if I do, I'm not sure how to get in the test mode. I take
>>> another look at my manual, but I know that the software had been updated
>>> since I bought the EC2. About 18 months ago, I believe.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Steve Brooks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:
flyrotary@lancaironline.net]On
>>> Behalf Of Ed Anderson
>>> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 10:12 AM
>>> To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Hard Starting
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve, the first thing I would do is:
>>>
>>> 1. Check that the EC2 injector simulation mode (mode1) is firing all
>>> the
>>> injectors
>>> 2. Check that the EC2 Ignition Simulation mode (mode8) is firing all
>>> the
>>> plugs
>>>
>>> I don't know if this could possibly be the case with you, but since you
>>> were
>>> doing some electrical work, I'll suggest it anyway.
>>>
>>> Turn off one set of your injectors and try the mixture control. If you
>>> find
>>> the mixture control is not acting as before, the system could be in
>>> "cold
>>> start" mode. I damaged the EC2 once by trying to plug in an electrical
>>> device to interface with the EC2. The engine would run on all four
>>> injectors (and then poorly at low rpm) if I turned the mixture max lean
>>> (CCW), however, it seem to function properly with one pair of injectors
>>> turned off.
>>>
>>> Later Tracy discovered that I had fried the B controller and had caused
>>> the
>>> A controller to go into "cold start" mode. That caused too much fuel
>>> flow
>>> with 4 injectors, but when I cut out one pair, then the mixture
>>> controlled
>>> exercised its normal control
>>>
>>> So you might just turn off one pair and see (I'd recommend turning off
>>> your
>>> secondary).
>>>
>>> If that does not seem to help, I think the next thing I would check is
>>> the
>>> compression of my rotors. If for some reason you have some faces with
>>> low
>>> compression, that can hinder starting.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps
>>>
>>> Ed
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Steve Brooks" <
cozy4pilot@gmail.com>
>>> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <
flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
>>> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2007 8:39 AM
>>> Subject: [FlyRotary] Hard Starting
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have an issue all of the sudden with my 13B Turbo not wanting to
>>>>start.
>>>> It will fire occasionally, but just won't start running.
>>>> If I am persistent enough (and have enough battery), It will finally
>>>> start,
>>>> but does not run well. Seems to have a miss in it. It runs better if I
>>>> turn
>>>> the mixture to lean, in fact, I can turn the mixture all the way
>>>> counter
>>>> clock wise. I think that it used to die when I would do that. When I
>>>> switch to controller B, it runs better for a few seconds, and then goes
>>>> back
>>>> to missing. It doesn't start any easier on controller B either.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't done a lot of troubleshooting on it yet, but wondered if
>>>> anyone
>>>> has had a similar issue. I did replace the spark plugs, but that didn't
>>>> seem
>>>> to help any. I still have the stock turbo on it, so, maybe the turbo
>>>> is
>>>> starting to go. It also started this problem, after I fixed a problem
>>>> with
>>>> the starter. My Cessna ignition switch got some water in it and it got
>>>> to
>>>> where it wouldn't engage the starter. I took it apart, and cleaned all
>>>> of
>>>> the contacts to fix it. I have that switch also wired to do the coil
>>>> test
>>>> when you select mag1 or mag2 on the switch. The coil test only works
>>>> on
>>>> controller B though, so I don't think that would affect controller A.
>>>>
>>>> I guess that maybe my next step is to verify that I'm getting spark on
>>>> all
>>>> plugs, and then maybe try removing the plumbing to the throttle body,
>>>> and
>>>> try starting it then. That should verify if my turbo is failing, and
>>>> restricting air flow.
>>>>
>>>> Steve Brooks
>>>> Cozy MKIV 13B Turbo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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