X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.100] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.11) with ESMTP id 2284861 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:13:12 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.100; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-01.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l7Q2CY6n004703 for ; Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:12:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000b01c7e786$947b4910$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 22:12:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7E765.0CE8E050" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7E765.0CE8E050 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Welcome, Wendell Fuel system design is certainly a critical area and a lot of thought = needs to be given it. I went against the concept of large header tanks and have one that holds = approx 32 oz or one pint. I have it mounted on the engine side of FW = (would change that) and at the lowest point. After my pressure = regulator, my return fuel dumps into this tiny header tank. =20 Many of today's EFI automobiles now use a "returnless" fuel system by = controlling the fuel pressure as needed to prevent vapor lock. I view = my tiny header as sort of an in-between a header than and no header tank = {:>). I do have blast tubes of cooling air going to it and I did have fuel = percolation on the ground before putting the tubes in. However, the = boost pump (6 psi) immediately squished any that occurred. Having been = flying with it in the sunny South for almost 10 years. My rational was that IF your larger header tanks does get filled with = hot fuel, its going to take a long time to burn that hot fuel off and = get new cooler fuel. My pint gets replenished at flight power settings = so quickly that heat is not an issue. A long idle on a hot day could = cause some percolation, but since I always take off with boost pump on, = its never been an issue. Be oh-so-careful in design of your fuel system - needless to say, but = will anyhow. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 9:59 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks Ed and Charlie, You both got the same answer, I think the 1.8 gal. estimate came from = my first mock-up and it was 14 in. instead of 15. In some of my = calculations I did get 2.0 +something as an answer. Now how much sump = tank volume is really needed? I think Perry Mick uses one slightly over = a gallon. If one gallon is sufficient, then I can save 6 pounds of = usually unused fuel. I regret hearing about George Graham, I was hoping to meet him, he = sent a drawing of his cooling set-up and was always ready to help. Wendell You can look at your tank as composed of two boxes (actually one and = 1/2 boxes). 1st box is 3.75" x 6" x 15" =3D 337.5 cubic inches.=20 A second box is 3.75 " x (11-6)" x 15" =3D 281.25 Cubic inches but = you really only have 1/2 of this box, so triangular section volume = =3D 1/2 (rectangular section) volume =3D 281.25 * 1/2 =3D 140.625 cubic = inches So total volume =3D volume of 1st box (337.5 )+ 1/2 volume of second = box (140.625) =3D 478.125 cubic inches or 2.07 US Gallons Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Wendell Voto=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 1:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need help Thanks for the responses to my requests.=20 I wasn't to go John Slade's route and try to put in an air = conditioner and the lines need to take 250 to 300 psi. The larger = return line should only see about 175 psi on a hot tarmac (engine off) = and the feed line will see up to 275 psi (assuming a inefficient = condenser) on a hot day. Finding a place for the condenser is the main problem as I see = it. I'll look up Mazdatrix for the exhaust studs. I hoped someone = knew the exact size so they could be purchased locally. Here is a math problem for you brain types (all rotary head but = me) -how much fuel will a tank hold that is 3.75 in. tall, 15 in. long, = 11 in.deep on the bottom, top is 6 in. deep then slopes to zero at the = front? I think it is about 1.8 gal. ___6in._ | \ =20 |_________\ 11in. Wendell In a message dated 8/23/2007 8:29:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, = jwvoto@itlnet.net writes: Hey guys, I still need help in obtaining the nuts for the exhaust studs = on the 13b. Also, does anyone have working phi ratings for 3003-0 = aluminum tubing. Can it withstand 250psi Wendell What wall thickness Wendell? .010 thick NO! 1 inch (wall) yes. = Give us an idea of what you are using it for. Bill Jepson ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL.com. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7E765.0CE8E050 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Welcome, Wendell
 
Fuel system design is certainly a critical area and = a lot of=20 thought needs to be given it.
 
I went against the concept of large header tanks and = have one=20 that holds approx  32 oz or one pint.  I have it mounted on = the engine=20 side of FW (would change that) and at the lowest point.  After my = pressure=20 regulator, my return fuel dumps into this tiny header tank.  =
 
Many of today's EFI automobiles now use a = "returnless" fuel=20 system by controlling the fuel pressure as needed to prevent vapor = lock.  I=20 view my tiny header as sort of an in-between a header than and no header = tank=20 {:>).
 
I do have blast tubes of cooling air going to it and = I did=20 have fuel percolation on the ground before putting the tubes = in. =20 However, the boost pump (6 psi) immediately squished any that = occurred. =20 Having been flying with it in the sunny South for almost 10 = years.
 
My rational was that IF your larger header tanks = does get=20 filled with hot fuel, its going to take a long time to burn that hot = fuel off=20 and get new cooler fuel.  My pint gets replenished at flight power = settings=20 so quickly that heat is not an issue.  A long idle on a hot day = could cause=20 some percolation, but since I always take off with boost pump on, its = never been=20 an issue.
 
Be oh-so-careful in design of your fuel system - = needless to=20 say, but will anyhow.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Wendell = Voto=20
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2007 = 9:59=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: need = help

Thanks Ed and = Charlie,
You both got the same = answer, I think=20 the 1.8 gal. estimate came from my first mock-up and it was 14 in. = instead of=20 15. In some of my calculations  I did get 2.0 +something as an=20 answer.  Now how much sump tank volume is really needed?  I = think=20 Perry Mick uses one slightly over a gallon.  If one gallon is = sufficient,=20 then I can save 6 pounds of usually unused fuel.
 
I regret hearing about = George Graham,=20 I was hoping to meet him, he sent a drawing of his cooling set-up and = was=20 always ready to help.
 
Wendell

You can look at your tank as composed of two = boxes=20 (actually one and 1/2 boxes).  1st box is  3.75" x 6" x = 15" =3D=20 337.5 cubic inches.
 
A second box is 3.75 " x (11-6)" x 15" =3D = 281.25 Cubic=20 inches but you really only have 1/2 of this box,   so = triangular=20 section volume  =3D 1/2 (rectangular section) volume  = =3D 281.25=20 * 1/2 =3D 140.625 cubic inches
 
So total volume =3D volume of 1st box (337.5 )+ = 1/2 volume=20 of second box (140.625) =3D 478.125 cubic inches or 2.07 US=20 Gallons
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 Wendell=20 Voto
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, August 25, = 2007 1:19=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = need=20 help

 
Thanks=20 for the responses to my requests.
 I wasn't to go John Slade's route and try to put in an air = conditioner=20 and the lines need to take 250 to 300 psi.  The larger = return line=20 should only see about 175 psi on a hot tarmac (engine off) and = the feed=20 line will see up to 275 psi (assuming a inefficient condenser) = on a hot=20 day.
Finding a place for the condenser is the main problem = as I see=20 it.
 
I'll=20 look up Mazdatrix for the exhaust studs.  I hoped someone = knew the=20 exact size so they could be purchased locally.
 
Here=20 is a math problem for you brain types (all rotary head but me) = -how much=20 fuel will a tank hold that is 3.75 in. tall, 15 in. long, 11 = in.deep on=20 the bottom, top is 6 in. deep then slopes to zero at the front? = I think=20 it is about 1.8 gal.
___6in._
|          &nb= sp;     \  =20
|_________\
       11in.
 
Wendell
 
In a message dated 8/23/2007 8:29:10 PM Pacific Standard = Time, jwvoto@itlnet.net = writes:
Hey guys,
I still need help in obtaining the nuts for the exhaust = studs on=20 the 13b. Also, does anyone have working phi ratings for 3003-0 = aluminum tubing.  Can it withstand 250psi
Wendell
What wall thickness Wendell? .010 thick NO! 1 inch (wall) = yes. Give=20 us an idea of what you are using it for.
Bill Jepson



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