X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from wr-out-0506.google.com ([64.233.184.225] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTP id 2173417 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 09:31:31 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.233.184.225; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by wr-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id i3so94160wra for ; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:30:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=YB6GUkTPet0M+ZgZFWRsnRdc21uMYMJTi9mkOdaNXOJwYunGLWtLtfHRr+ziJ4tcOGH0HYql+67AHVVFhXai3FyUCFBp9lT3bQNhLKMGcv9qONJZWdVWXu6E7G4A1/2yNaH8vNFCvOIvxKwBrcD2RUy9VJYt4pPvRxWVBdDXivE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=baT10wC3ltrmRqOS/MXR6D9youK7iBkvMNoIR7ZD7DIoo3bGAM6X+b4gVvMLM3hfTrgQ6tPjmTh2m4jEjZk03F0Kf0p4ByL99NFj5pIyUxICAxzE0jLIMsR1muDzjwaZEjB9gQFTdb20qB4g7X4bdu+P3hkyPjnXRbbD6eryRhc= Received: by 10.90.35.15 with SMTP id i15mr336021agi.1184247052574; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.90.115.6 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Jul 2007 06:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0707120630o5a7bf08yc13c37ba0c635a6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 08:30:52 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] EC2 changes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14861_14003228.1184247052533" References: ------=_Part_14861_14003228.1184247052533 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Hi Al, I might be able to add a little here. I had the "snubber" mod done to my EC-2 and it totally fixed the idle mixture problems. I haven't fouled a plug since getting the upgrade (I have a workbench full of fouled plugs which I hope to be able to clean and use). Another mod I had Tracy do was to change the EC-2 over to the Renesis style crank-mounted CAS. That maybe wasn't one of my better decisions. It took lots of testing and finally hooking it up to a scope to get it de-bugged so that it would run up into the higher rpm ranges. I ended up adding a 22K resistor in the CAS lead, and a 6.2V Zener diode/620 ohm resistor combination te'ed to ground to clip the voltages down to something the EC-2 would accept. I was hoping to get a more reliable system by using the crank mounted sensor rather than the gear driven sensor. I believe the signal is more stable, but I'm not sure the circuit is superior. We'll hav= e to wait and see. Best I recall, my coil disable switches work as they should, i.e. engine slows when shutting down either. But is slows more when I disable the leading coils than when disabling the trailing coils. I haven't tried it at high rpm though. I don't know if it "auto-leans" with altitude as I haven't flown yet. I'll have to watch that closely when the time comes. Also, will have to check mode B to make sure engine still runs. I haven't tried copying A to B since the last upgrade as I have been afraid to mess up B as bad as I did A. Actually, it is running pretty good (better than ever before) on A, so now might be a good time to try copying A to B. I do suspect that my auto-tune feature isn't working (could be operator error). It was supposed to have had the auto-tune upgrade done a year or s= o back. But I go through all the steps described in the manual but the mixture doesn't seem to change. Hope this helps a bit, and thanks for the update, Mark S. On 7/11/07, Al Gietzen wrote: > > Further to my last posting on the subject; we did the following changes > to my 20B EC2 > > > > 1. reduced values of the added caps for noise filtering on the > ignitions circuits by a factor of ten. > 2. replaced the MAP pressure sensor on Controller "A" > 3. added what is being referred to as the 'clamping diodes' or > 'snubbers' on the injector circuits. > > > > Changing the capacitors had no noticeable effect on what I believed was a > timing issue. I still find that at low power disabling leading coils has > definitely more effect than disabling trailing; whereas at high power, sa= y > about 19" MAP and above, disabling the leading has small effect and > disabling trialing has larger effect. I have concluded that the timing i= s > not late with both on; since I found that now retarding the timing a 2-3 > steps (4-5 degrees) at power increased the rpm a bit. I think the larger > caps did result in a small retarding of the spark. > > > > Does anyone else with a 3-rotor, and using the LS1 coils, note the same > behavior when disabling leading/trailing ignition? Tracy mentioned that > on his 20B using the renesis coils, disabling either set results in the > engine stopping, so there may be something amiss in the circuitry. > > > > I thought that the strange leaning of mixture with altitude when running > on controller A was solved by replacing the pressure sensor =96 until I g= ot > over 5000'. Then over the next 200 ft increase the mixture monitor bar o= n > the EM2 went slowly off the bottom of the scale, and it took turning the > mixture knob to about 3:00 position to return it to a mid-scale reading. > Switching to controller B gave me a momentary scare =96 the engine quit,= well > completely lost power for the fraction of a second that it took to switch > back to A. More on this below. > > > > Adding the snubbers on the injector circuits resulted in quite a differen= t > profile on the mixture table settings. It also resulted in smoother runn= ing > at low rpm, and seemingly easier tuning to get smooth transition from 'lo= w' > to 'high' table, and across the stage point (or maybe I'm just getting > better re-tuning). > > > > One thing I had discovered when re-tuning was that, apparently due to > powering up the unit on the bench to check the MAP sensor, resulted in th= e > injector pulse setting (mode 3) to get set to a much lower value, and the > stage point to someplace out of range. The engine would only run with th= e > cold start switch on. Once I got those things straightened out, things > proceeded smoothly. When I had all well on controller A, I did the copy = A > to B. Prior to flying, I had not checked running on B. (OK, it's on my ch= eck > list, I just bypassed it.) After the episode in the air I figured out tha= t B > was acting like A did before the retuning. I tried multiple times again t= o > copy A to B; but it did not take. I had to manually retune B to get thin= gs > running right. Don't know what, but the copy A to B is not working. > > > > Didn't mean to run on here =96 am I boring anyone yetJ? > > > > Expect to fly tomorrow for some air pressure measurements on the oil > cooler. > > > > Al > > > > > ------=_Part_14861_14003228.1184247052533 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Hi Al,
 
I might be able to add a little here.  I had the "snubber&qu= ot; mod done to my EC-2 and it totally fixed the idle mixture pro= blems.  I haven't fouled a plug since getting the upgrade (I have = a workbench full of fouled plugs which I hope to be able to clean and use).=   
 
Another mod I had Tracy do was to change the EC-2 over to the Renesis = style crank-mounted CAS.  That maybe wasn't one of my better = decisions.  It took lots of testing and finally hooking it up to a sco= pe to get it de-bugged so that it would run up into the higher rpm ranges.&= nbsp; I ended up adding a 22K resistor in the CAS lead, and a=20 6.2V Zener diode/620 ohm resistor combination te'ed to ground to&n= bsp;clip the voltages down to something the EC-2 would accept.&nb= sp; I was hoping to get a more reliable system by using the crank mounted s= ensor rather than the gear driven sensor.  I believe the signal is mor= e stable, but I'm not sure the circuit is superior.  We'll hav= e to wait and see.
 
Best I recall, my coil disable switches work as they should, i.e.=  engine slows when shutting down either.  But is slows more = when I disable the leading coils than when disabling the tra= iling coils.  I haven't tried it at high rpm though. &nb= sp;
 
I don't know if it "auto-leans" with altitude as I = haven't flown yet.  I'll have to watch that closely when = the time comes.  Also, will have to check mode B to make sur= e engine still runs.  I haven't tried copying A to B&nbs= p;since the last upgrade as I have been afraid to mess up B as bad as = I did A.  Actually, it is running pretty good (better than ever b= efore) on A, so now might be a good time to try copying A to B.  =      
 
I do suspect that my auto-tune feature isn't working (could be ope= rator error).  It was supposed to have had the auto-tune upgrade = done a year or so back.  But I go through all the steps described= in the manual but the mixture doesn't seem to change. &= nbsp;
 
Hope this helps a bit, and thanks for the update,
 
Mark S. 
 
  

 
On 7/11/07, = Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net= > wrote:

Further to my last posting on the subject; we did the follo= wing changes to my 20B EC2

 

  1. reduced values of the added caps for noise filtering on th= e ignitions circuits by a factor of ten.=20
  2. replaced the MAP pressure sensor on Controller "A"<= /font>=20
  3. added what is being referred to as the 'clamping diodes' o= r 'snubbers' on the injector circuits.

 

Changing the capacitors had no noticeable effect on what I = believed was a timing issue.  I still find that at low power disabling= leading coils has definitely more effect than disabling trailing; whereas = at high power, say about 19" MAP and above, disabling the leading has small= effect and disabling trialing has larger effect.  I have concluded th= at the timing is not late with both on; since I found that now retarding th= e timing a 2-3 steps (4-5 degrees) at power increased the rpm a bit. I thin= k the larger caps did result in a small retarding of the spark.

 

Does anyone else with a 3-rotor, and using the LS1 coils, n= ote the same behavior when disabling leading/trailing ig= nition?   Tracy mentioned that on his 20B using the renesi= s coils, disabling either set results in the engine stopping, so there may = be something amiss in the circuitry.

 

I thought that the strange leaning of mixture with altitude= when running on controller A was solved by replacing the pressure sensor = =96 until I got over 5000'.  Then over the next 200 ft increase the mi= xture monitor bar on the EM2 went slowly off the bottom of the scale, and i= t took turning the mixture knob to about 3:00 position to return it to a mi= d-scale reading.  Switching to controller B gave me a momentary scare = =96 the engine quit, well completely lost power for the fraction of a secon= d that it took to switch back to A. More on this below.

 

Adding the snubbers on the injector circuits resulted in qu= ite a different profile on the mixture table settings.  It also result= ed in smoother running at low rpm, and seemingly easier tuning to get smoot= h transition from 'low' to 'high' table, and across the stage point (or may= be I'm just getting better re-tuning). =20

 

One thing I had discovered when re-tuning was that, apparen= tly due to powering up the unit on the bench to check the MAP sensor, resul= ted in the injector pulse setting (mode 3) to get set to a much lower value= , and the stage point to someplace out of range.  The engine would onl= y run with the cold start switch on.  Once I got those things straight= ened out, things proceeded smoothly.  When I had all well on controlle= r A, I did the copy A to B. Prior to flying, I had not checked running on B= . (OK, it's on my check list, I just bypassed it.) After the episode in the= air I figured out that B was acting like A did before the retuning. I trie= d multiple times again to copy A to B; but it did not take.  I had to = manually retune B to get things running right.  Don't know what, but t= he copy A to B is not working.

 

Didn't mean to run on here =96 am I boring anyone yet J?

 

Expect to fly tomorrow for some air pressure measurements o= n the oil cooler.

 

Al

 

 


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