X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from access.aic-fl.com ([207.30.253.2] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.10) with ESMTP id 2150683 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 21:20:14 -0400 Received-SPF: softfail receiver=logan.com; client-ip=207.30.253.2; envelope-from=unicorn@gdsys.net Received: from main (gdsi-27.gdsys.net [207.30.255.27]) by access.aic-fl.com (Rockliffe SMTPRA 4.5.6) with SMTP id for ; Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:16:04 -0500 Message-ID: <001e01c7bb7d$ed350710$1bff1ecf@main> From: "Richard Sohn" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Brazing was [FlyRotary] Re: PP Construction.. Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2007 20:19:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001B_01C7BB54.01B40350" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C7BB54.01B40350 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let me just throw in here where I stand on the PP vs SP. The only reason = I have PP on the single rotor is that it is the only way I could build a = really light engine. I can not make a compound side housing using side = ports, within the weight envelope I have now. More power than a side = port motor? Good if "yes", still a very light and simple engine if "no". = PP on a full size two rotor? Only if a considerable weight reduction = goes with it. I don't think one can get near the relaiability of the = stock configuration with a non industrialized PP design. How much more = power at what cost(effort)? Don't forget, the rotary power to weight is = already over Lycos, and that with not operating it at the limit of its = ultimate capabilities. FWIW Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Brazing was [FlyRotary] Re: PP Construction.. I agree, George, When you've gotta have the power, then you've gotta = have the power. I am certainly not Poo-Pooing PP at all. I have just (belatedly) = come to realize (in the wisdom of my old age), that just because = something is available that can do x,y, and z, I really don't need it if = all I plan to do is x {:>). I am certainly eager to see some of you guys work this out - who knows = I may not be able to resist {:>) Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: George Lendich=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 5:39 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Brazing was [FlyRotary] Re: PP = Construction.. Ed, All true, but PP comes into it's own when you need that extra = power to match the size of the aircraft. I'm pursuing the single for those aircraft that need just a bit = more than 100 hp. I think Richard is doing a great job in this area, and I hope he = is successful. George ( down under)=20 Hi Dave, I was just responding to Doug on whether I thought the H2000 = aluminum brazing rod (pretty amazing stuff) would work to braze the PP = tube to the outer aluminum surface of a rotor housing. I think it = would- provide you are able heat up the housing sufficiently.=20 While I find PP very intriguing, I realize that since I don't fly = to the power capability of my stock 13B, there would not be much point = on investing the time and money for a PP. Yes, it could be nice on take = off, but then I throttle back to my normal 7.5-8 gph economy cruise. So = it just doesn't seem to make it worth the effort - for me and my way of = flying. =20 However, for those who want high speed cruise it sounds like a = good way to go. The problem is other than Richard Sohn and his PP = single rotor, I don't know of anyone who has actually done it, much less = flying with one. The exception is the $$ PowerSport engine - nice PP, = nice power - but expensive. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: david mccandless=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 10:24 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: PP Construction.. On 30, Jun , at 9:08 AM, Ed Anderson wrote: Doug, I have not tried that particular brazing job, but I = think it would be much better than just about any other method so far = mentioned. However, that rotor housing is a large mass of aluminum to = get up to temperature brazing temperature, so it would probably take a = high BTU torch and perhaps a larger propane tank (like for the BBQ = grill) rather than the smaller bottles. I would certainly try it on a = junk housing first. But, seeing what they did in the H2000 video with = that stuff, I would say it's certainly worth a try.=20 =20 =20 Ed Hi Ed and Doug, I have been following the posts on al brazing, but I am not sure = I have this right.=20 Are you suggesting that a SS Pport tube could be TIG welded to = the steel liner inside the rotor housing and brazed to the cast aluminum = housing on the outside? This sounds like the ultimate solution=20 BR, Dave McC -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition.=20 Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/880 - Release Date: = 6/29/2007 2:15 PM ------=_NextPart_000_001B_01C7BB54.01B40350 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let me just throw in here where I stand = on the PP=20 vs SP. The only reason I have PP on the single rotor is that it is the = only way=20 I could build a really light engine. I can not make a compound side = housing=20 using side ports, within the weight envelope I have now.  More = power than a=20 side port motor? Good if "yes", still a very light and simple engine if = "no".=20
PP on a full size two rotor? Only = if a=20 considerable weight reduction goes with it. I don't think one = can get=20 near the relaiability of the stock configuration with a non = industrialized=20 PP design. How much more power at what cost(effort)? Don't forget, the = rotary=20 power to weight is already over Lycos, and that with not operating=20 it at the limit of its ultimate capabilities.
FWIW
 
Richard Sohn
N2071U
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 = 6:05=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Brazing was=20 [FlyRotary] Re: PP Construction..

I agree, George, When you've gotta have the = power, then=20 you've gotta have the power.
 
  I am certainly not Poo-Pooing PP at = all.  I=20 have just (belatedly) come to realize (in the wisdom of my old age), = that just=20 because something is available that can do x,y, and=20 z, I really don't need it if all I plan to do is=20 x {:>).
 
I am certainly eager to see some of you guys = work this=20 out - who knows I may not be able to resist {:>)
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 George Lendich
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 = 5:39=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Brazing was=20 [FlyRotary] Re: PP Construction..

Ed,
All true, but PP comes into it's = own when you=20 need that extra power to match the size of the = aircraft.
I'm pursuing the single for those = aircraft=20 that need just a bit more than 100 hp.
I think Richard is doing a great = job in this=20 area, and I hope he is successful.
George ( down = under) 
Hi Dave,
 
I was just responding to Doug on whether I = thought=20 the H2000 aluminum brazing rod (pretty amazing stuff) would work = to braze=20 the PP tube to the outer aluminum surface of a rotor = housing.  I=20 think it would- provide you are able heat up the housing=20 sufficiently. 
 
 While I find PP very intriguing, I = realize=20 that since I don't fly to the power capability of my stock 13B, = there=20 would not be much point on investing the time and money for a = PP. =20 Yes, it could be nice on take off, but then I throttle back to my = normal=20 7.5-8 gph economy cruise.  So it just doesn't seem to make it = worth=20 the effort - for me and my way of flying. 
 
However, for those who want high speed = cruise it=20 sounds like a good way to go.  The problem is other = than =20 Richard Sohn and his PP single rotor, I don't know of anyone who = has=20 actually done it, much less flying with one.  The exception = is the $$=20 PowerSport engine - nice PP, nice power - but = expensive.
 
Ed
----- Original Message ----- =
From:=20 david=20 mccandless
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20
Sent: Friday, June 29, = 2007 10:24=20 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = PP=20 Construction..


On 30, Jun , at 9:08 AM, Ed Anderson = wrote:

Doug, I have not tried that particular brazing job, = but I=20 think it would be much better than just about any other method = so far=20 mentioned.  However, that rotor housing  is  a = large=20 mass of aluminum to get up to temperature brazing temperature, = so it=20 would probably take a high BTU torch and perhaps a larger = propane tank=20 (like for the BBQ grill)  rather than the smaller = bottles. =20 I would certainly try it on a junk housing first.  But, = seeing=20 what they did in the H2000 video with that stuff, I would say = it's=20 certainly worth a=20 = try. 
 
&nb= sp;
Ed

Hi=20 Ed and Doug,
I have been following the posts on al brazing, = but I am=20 not sure I have this right.
Are you suggesting that a SS = Pport tube=20 could be TIG welded to the steel liner inside the rotor housing = and=20 brazed to the cast aluminum housing on the outside?
This = sounds like=20 the ultimate solution
BR, Dave=20 McC

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free = Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/880 - Release = Date:=20 6/29/2007 2:15 PM
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