I have never been interested in max power but the considerable power  that a conservatively timed and sized p port can produce at our RPM  plus the simple and light weight weight intake is clearly the ideal  set up. Nothing else can compare at all.   Here is my 230 hp @ 7500  rpm system.  It is based on the 13B.   It would have 1.5" i.d.  intakes, 22 inches in length. The throttle body i.d. would be larger  (1.625 i.d.)  to make up for the losses due to the butterfly  obstructing the passage.   If you are using a slide throttle, then  the i.d. can remain at 1.5".  Timing would be retarded enough to  limit overlap, but the port would close at the same time as the  LeMan's p port. In other words,  the port would open and close late.    If we ever get one of these on a dyno, then we can dial in  the intake length.  Big  p ports that develop max power at 9000 rpm  have nothing to do with us.  This is just my uneducated opinion, but  I have had a lot of good advisors  along the way.      Jerry



On Jun 18, 2007, at 7:58 PM, Ed Anderson wrote:

Sounds like we have PP nailed down, so now just need to find a  source at a reasonable price.

On the other hand, I have to keep reminding myself that when I fly,  I normally do not come anywhere close to using the power I can  produce with my old street ported 13B.  I keep the fuel burn down  to 7.5-8 GPH. Now, take off is one place where I do use all the  old engine can produce even if only for 2-3 minutes.  Of course, it  always takes fuel to produce power and the thought that crosses my  mind is that the for the same power produced the Renesis will  undoubtedly get a better specific fuel consumption than a PP.

 So for those that want the utmost in power, it sounds like the PP  is the way to go.  For other cheap old chaps the Renesis would  appear to offer a cost effective power increase.

Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: <wrjjrs@aol.com>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 5:34 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations


Ed, Jerry and others,
 Sizing of the port and the length of the intake tubes are the details
that will control powerband. P-ports have been shown to produce more
power at anything above 2000 RPM. We are talking about details here.
Jerry you are correct that you can use smaller ports, no problem, but
not a LOT smaller. For performance with control I believe I'll  chose to
run a smaller throttle body. You can limit the system on either end.
Bill Jepson


-----Original Message-----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:25 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations


Hi Jerry,

I know you did a lot research on the right sizing of a PP for our
application. Any of that material, rationale, etc, you would care to
share at this time?

The reason I am interested is that with the Mazda folks claiming that
the six port Renesis produced 40% more HP than an older 13B. If I
assume a modest 160 Hp for the old 13B, 40% more would provide 1.4*160
= 224 HP which I believe is in the ball park of what they are now
claiming for HP. Now that sounds goo, however, that is probably at  9000
rpm which is probably a bit high for our needs. So if the PP could
produce 224 HP at a lesser rpm say no more than 7500 rpm, then the PP
would suit our needs better (just my opinion of course).

Ed
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Hey"  <jerryhey@earthlink.net>
To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 1:33 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations

I usually keep my mouth shut when it comes to P port discussions. I

agree >with everything Bill has written with one exception. I doubt  the
big p >ports are advantageous at our RPM. A 1.5" i.d. port will flow
7500 rpm, >no problem. The smaller ports are easier to time (less
overlap) and the >smaller dia. intake tubes are much easier to fit.

jerry




On Jun 18, 2007, at 1:01 PM, Richard Sohn wrote:

Bill, AMEN to all. Richard Sohn N2071U ----- Original Message  -----  From: <wrjjrs@aol.com> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" <flyrotary@lancaironline.net> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:12  AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port  configurations Guys, Lets cut to the chase. The P-port rotary  will idle fine. The

original

12As were p-port. Lots of the NSU wankels were p-port. John Deere

and

MB C111 engines were p-port. There was no comment that these  engines didn't idle. Perhaps not as smoothly as the side port  engines, but

idle

none the less. The P-port makes the most power, period. Mazda

wouldn't

have used the P-port only on their LeMans engine if combination

ports

would have worked better. Don't think for a second they didn't  try other configurations either. They used the far trailing plug to

improve

efficiency less than 2%. Richard's work showed no improvement to

power

with the side port/p-port combo. Anywhere but idle my guess would  be that the inrush from the p-port probably causes minimal flow  in the side ports. The p-port is open much sooner and flow is  underway by

the

time the side port opens. If we had a source for finished p-port housings that cost the same as the standard housings we would all  be using them and the discussion would cease and we would move on to

other

subjects. For aircraft use the big p-port is for most cases the  best possible solution. We can improve on minor details, but not  much.

The

simpler manifolding and more compact package when using fewer tubes

for

the intake are all pluses for the p-port. We don't have car low  RPM issues to worry about. If a good source of the Mazda racing p- port housings was available for the same price as standard  housings I'd

have

3 on order right now. (20B remember) Bill Jepson Well, Mark -  perhaps in the future Only so much time and so many things that  would be fun to try. IF I interpret the charts correctly the P +  S type intake configuration appears to provide much more intake  port area than either the P or S type along. Makes sense - if you  have twice as many intakes it has more area. Supposedly the P+S  overcomes the low rpm idle problem of the PP alone. But, for  aircraft usage, I think Richard is on the money, you don't really  spend much time at idle in aircraft usage and I idle above

1600

rpm in any case, so who cares {:>) - just go with the P port.  However, I am intrigued by the large intake area that the P + S  configuration has over even the PP alone and what that might  potent for POWER! More Power, Scotty!!!!! Saw some information on  the Renesis in an SAE paper that indicates

the

six port (They call it the HIGH POWER Renesis) produces 40% more

power

than the standard 13B. They did not make a comparison to the 4  port Renesis but presumably it produces less than the six port  Renesis

but

more than the older 13B. They also didn't specify the rpm point  that occurred, but I assume it must be near its maximum. Also,  its not clear if this figure was based on the earlier 250 HP  claim for the Renesis by Mazda or the later adjusted 237 HP claim  (actually I'd

take

either one) . The intake configuration and operation on the six  port is quite involved, but they do make use of the Dynamic  Effect. They call it

the

Sequential Dynamic Air Intake System (S-DAIS). Since there is no intake/exhaust port overlap in the Renesis, they appear to make use

of

the "A" pulse which is the pressure wave created when the high

velocity

air in the intake slams into the closing port and bounced back down

the

manifold. They then have several valves that activate at  different rpm/air flow situations that control the sequential  activation of elements of the S-DAIS. As well as the "A" pulse,  the older NA 13B DEI also used the

stronger

"B" pulse created when the intake opened releasing a burst of the trapped exhaust gas residue to create a power shock wave which

raised

the manifold pressure at the second rotor's intake. But, since  there is no intake/exhaust overlap with the Renesis side ports,  it would appear that only the "A" pulse is used to enhance power.  Ed -----  Original Message -----
From: Mark Steitle To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Monday,  June 18, 2007 9:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different  Rotary Port configurations Thanks Richard for the clarification.  Mark S. (Looks like I should have typed a little faster.) On  6/18/07, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote: Well Ed, It  looks like you've got yourself a new intake project. Didn't

Richard

Sohn try running side and peripheral intake porting on his one

rotor?

I vaguely remember him mentioning it and that he abandoned the idea.

I

think it had something to do with the complexity of the dual  runners and that he was satisfied with the idle characteristics  of the

p-port?

Maybe Richard can comment? Mark S. On 6/17/07, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote: Ok, here's the answer to my question. The second image shows a three barrel carb with the  primary going to two side intake ports and the secondary going to  the Peripheral ports. Interesting concept. Ed ----- Original  Message -----  From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft  Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:15 PM Subject: Different Rotary  Port configurations Ok, getting a bit quite again. Here is  something that some of you

may

find interesting. Its a graph comparing the possible different  port configurations for the Rotary engine. The top graph shows  the intake and exhaust port opening for a engine with a  peripheral intake and peripheral exhaust - such as a 13B

which

has been converted to a PP intake. The trapezoidal shapes show  the port area. For example on the first graph the first  rectangular area entitled PORT shows the Peripheral exhaust port  open at 63Deg ATDC. There are two trapezoid areas shown for the  Peripheral intake. A "P" which I presume stands for Primary and a  much larger P+S which I presumes stands for a combined primary  and Secondary port. Although, I do not ever recall a PP with two

tubes

one for primary and one for secondary. So there may be another explanation. The second graph is our traditional 13B with  sideport intake and peripheral port exhaust. Here the intake  timing for the intake is

that

of the NA 13B although it shows the intake opening a bit later than

the

stock 13B but closing at the stock 40 deg ABDC. If you look at  the area under the first graphs "P" trapezoid it

appears

to be open much longer than the P for the side port intake (2nd

graph),

but the trapezoid is not as high. Wonder what that signifies?  Open longer but not as large a port area? Anyhow, thought some of  you might find it interesting. Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary  Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http:// members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http:// www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -- Homepage: http:// www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http:// mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html

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