X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2109651 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:57:38 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l5IHufS1025963 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 13:56:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000901c7b1d6$12908f90$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 14:25:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine Hi Jerry, I know you did a lot research on the right sizing of a PP for our application. Any of that material, rationale, etc, you would care to share at this time? The reason I am interested is that with the Mazda folks claiming that the six port Renesis produced 40% more HP than an older 13B. If I assume a modest 160 Hp for the old 13B, 40% more would provide 1.4*160 = 224 HP which I believe is in the ball park of what they are now claiming for HP. Now that sounds goo, however, that is probably at 9000 rpm which is probably a bit high for our needs. So if the PP could produce 224 HP at a lesser rpm say no more than 7500 rpm, then the PP would suit our needs better (just my opinion of course). Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry Hey" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 1:33 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations >I usually keep my mouth shut when it comes to P port discussions. I agree >with everything Bill has written with one exception. I doubt the big p >ports are advantageous at our RPM. A 1.5" i.d. port will flow 7500 rpm, >no problem. The smaller ports are easier to time (less overlap) and the >smaller dia. intake tubes are much easier to fit. > jerry > > > > > > On Jun 18, 2007, at 1:01 PM, Richard Sohn wrote: > >> Bill, >> >> AMEN to all. >> >> Richard Sohn >> N2071U >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 11:12 AM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations >> >> >> >> >> Guys, >> Lets cut to the chase. The P-port rotary will idle fine. The original >> 12As were p-port. Lots of the NSU wankels were p-port. John Deere and >> MB C111 engines were p-port. There was no comment that these engines >> didn't idle. Perhaps not as smoothly as the side port engines, but idle >> none the less. The P-port makes the most power, period. Mazda wouldn't >> have used the P-port only on their LeMans engine if combination ports >> would have worked better. Don't think for a second they didn't try >> other configurations either. They used the far trailing plug to improve >> efficiency less than 2%. Richard's work showed no improvement to power >> with the side port/p-port combo. Anywhere but idle my guess would be >> that the inrush from the p-port probably causes minimal flow in the >> side ports. The p-port is open much sooner and flow is underway by the >> time the side port opens. If we had a source for finished p-port >> housings that cost the same as the standard housings we would all be >> using them and the discussion would cease and we would move on to other >> subjects. For aircraft use the big p-port is for most cases the best >> possible solution. We can improve on minor details, but not much. The >> simpler manifolding and more compact package when using fewer tubes for >> the intake are all pluses for the p-port. We don't have car low RPM >> issues to worry about. If a good source of the Mazda racing p-port >> housings was available for the same price as standard housings I'd have >> 3 on order right now. (20B remember) >> Bill Jepson >> >> >> >> >> Well, Mark - perhaps in the future >> >> >> >> Only so much time and so many things that would be fun to try. IF I >> interpret the charts correctly the P + S type intake configuration >> appears to provide much more intake port area than either the P or S >> type along. Makes sense - if you have twice as many intakes it has >> more area. Supposedly the P+S overcomes the low rpm idle problem of >> the PP alone. >> >> >> >> But, for aircraft usage, I think Richard is on the money, you don't >> really spend much time at idle in aircraft usage and I idle above 1600 >> rpm in any case, so who cares {:>) - just go with the P port. >> >> >> >> However, I am intrigued by the large intake area that the P + S >> configuration has over even the PP alone and what that might potent >> for POWER! More Power, Scotty!!!!! >> >> >> >> Saw some information on the Renesis in an SAE paper that indicates the >> six port (They call it the HIGH POWER Renesis) produces 40% more power >> than the standard 13B. They did not make a comparison to the 4 port >> Renesis but presumably it produces less than the six port Renesis but >> more than the older 13B. They also didn't specify the rpm point that >> occurred, but I assume it must be near its maximum. Also, its not >> clear if this figure was based on the earlier 250 HP claim for the >> Renesis by Mazda or the later adjusted 237 HP claim (actually I'd take >> either one) . >> >> >> >> The intake configuration and operation on the six port is quite >> involved, but they do make use of the Dynamic Effect. They call it the >> Sequential Dynamic Air Intake System (S-DAIS). Since there is no >> intake/exhaust port overlap in the Renesis, they appear to make use of >> the "A" pulse which is the pressure wave created when the high velocity >> air in the intake slams into the closing port and bounced back down the >> manifold. They then have several valves that activate at different >> rpm/air flow situations that control the sequential activation of >> elements of the S-DAIS. >> >> >> >> As well as the "A" pulse, the older NA 13B DEI also used the stronger >> "B" pulse created when the intake opened releasing a burst of the >> trapped exhaust gas residue to create a power shock wave which raised >> the manifold pressure at the second rotor's intake. But, since there >> is no intake/exhaust overlap with the Renesis side ports, it would >> appear that only the "A" pulse is used to enhance power. >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Mark Steitle >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:12 AM >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations >> >> >> >> >> Thanks Richard for the clarification. >> >> >> Mark S. >> >> (Looks like I should have typed a little faster.) >> >> >> On 6/18/07, Mark Steitle wrote: >> >> Well Ed, >> >> It looks like you've got yourself a new intake project. Didn't Richard >> Sohn try running side and peripheral intake porting on his one rotor? >> I vaguely remember him mentioning it and that he abandoned the idea. I >> think it had something to do with the complexity of the dual runners >> and that he was satisfied with the idle characteristics of the p-port? >> Maybe Richard can comment? >> >> >> >> Mark S. >> >> >> >> On 6/17/07, Ed Anderson wrote: >> >> >> Ok, here's the answer to my question. The second image shows a three >> barrel carb with the primary going to two side intake ports and the >> secondary going to the Peripheral ports. Interesting concept. >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Ed Anderson >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:15 PM >> >> Subject: Different Rotary Port configurations >> >> >> >> >> >> Ok, getting a bit quite again. Here is something that some of you may >> find interesting. Its a graph comparing the possible different port >> configurations for the Rotary engine. >> >> The top graph shows the intake and exhaust port opening for a engine >> with a peripheral intake and peripheral exhaust - such as a 13B which >> has been converted to a PP intake. >> >> >> >> The trapezoidal shapes show the port area. For example on the first >> graph the first rectangular area entitled PORT shows the Peripheral >> exhaust port open at 63Deg ATDC. There are two trapezoid areas shown >> for the Peripheral intake. A "P" which I presume stands for Primary >> and a much larger P+S which I presumes stands for a combined primary >> and Secondary port. Although, I do not ever recall a PP with two tubes >> one for primary and one for secondary. So there may be another >> explanation. >> >> >> >> The second graph is our traditional 13B with sideport intake and >> peripheral port exhaust. Here the intake timing for the intake is that >> of the NA 13B although it shows the intake opening a bit later than the >> stock 13B but closing at the stock 40 deg ABDC. >> >> >> >> If you look at the area under the first graphs "P" trapezoid it appears >> to be open much longer than the P for the side port intake (2nd graph), >> but the trapezoid is not as high. Wonder what that signifies? Open >> longer but not as large a port area? >> >> >> >> Anyhow, thought some of you might find it interesting. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed Anderson >> Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered >> Matthews, NC >> eanderson@carolina.rr.com >> http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW >> http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ______________________________________________________________________ __ >> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >> from AOL at AOL.com. >> =0 >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/ >> List.html >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.9.0/852 - Release Date: 6/17/2007 >> 8:23 AM >> >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/ >> flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html