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Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 12:12:16 -0400
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Guys,
Lets cut to the chase. The P-port rotary will idle fine. The original=20
12As were p-port. Lots of the NSU wankels were p-port. John Deere and=20
MB C111 engines were p-port. There was no comment that these engines=20
didn't idle. Perhaps not as smoothly as the side port engines, but idle=20
none the less. The P-port makes the most power, period. Mazda wouldn't=20
have used the P-port only on their LeMans engine if combination ports=20
would have worked better. Don't think for a second they didn't try=20
other configurations either. They used the far trailing plug to improve=20
efficiency less than 2%. Richard's work showed no improvement to power=20
with the side port/p-port combo. Anywhere but idle my guess would be=20
that the inrush from the p-port probably causes minimal flow in the=20
side ports. The p-port is open much sooner and flow is underway by the=20
time the side port opens. If we had a source for finished p-port=20
housings that cost the same as the standard housings we would all be=20
using them and the discussion would cease and we would move on to other=20
subjects. For aircraft use the big p-port is for most cases the best=20
possible solution. We can improve on minor details, but not much. The=20
simpler manifolding and more compact package when using fewer tubes for=20
the intake are all pluses for the p-port. We don't have car low RPM=20
issues to worry about. If a good source of the Mazda racing p-port=20
housings was available for the same price as standard housings I'd have=20
3 on order right now. (20B remember)
Bill Jepson


Well, Mark - perhaps in the future

=A0

Only so much time and so many things that would be fun to try.=A0 IF I=20
interpret the charts correctly the P + S type intake configuration=20
appears to provide much more intake port area than either the P or S=20
type along.=A0 Makes sense - if you have twice as many intakes it has=20
more area.=A0 Supposedly the P+S overcomes the low rpm idle problem of=20
the PP alone.=A0

=A0

But, for aircraft usage, I think Richard is on the money, you don't=20
really spend much time at idle in aircraft usage =A0and I idle above 1600=20
rpm in any case, so who cares {:>) - just go with the P port.

=A0

However, I am intrigued by the large intake area that the P + S=20
configuration has over even the PP=A0 alone and what that might potent=20
for POWER!=A0 More Power, Scotty!!!!!

=A0

Saw some information on the Renesis in an SAE paper that indicates the=20
six port (They call it the HIGH POWER Renesis) produces 40% more power=20
than the standard 13B.=A0 They did not make a comparison to the 4 port=20
Renesis but presumably it produces less than the six port Renesis but=20
more than the older 13B.=A0 They also didn't specify the rpm point that=20
occurred, but I assume it must be near its maximum.=A0 Also, its not=20
clear if this figure was based on the earlier 250 HP claim for the=20
Renesis by Mazda or the later adjusted 237 HP claim (actually I'd take=20
either one) .

=A0

The intake configuration and operation on the six port is quite=20
involved, but they do make use of the Dynamic Effect.=A0 They call it the=20
Sequential Dynamic Air Intake System (S-DAIS).=A0 Since there is no=20
intake/exhaust port overlap in the Renesis, they appear to make use of=20
the "A" pulse which is the pressure wave created when the high velocity=20
air in the intake slams into the closing port and bounced back down the=20
manifold.=A0=A0 They then have several valves that activate at different=20
rpm/air flow situations that control the sequential activation of=20
elements of the S-DAIS.

=A0

=A0As well as the "A" pulse, the older NA 13B DEI also used the stronger=20
"B" pulse created when the intake opened releasing a burst of the=20
trapped exhaust gas residue to create a power shock wave which raised=20
the manifold pressure at the second rotor's intake.=A0 But, since there=20
is no intake/exhaust =A0overlap with the Renesis side ports, it would=20
appear that only the "A" pulse is used to enhance power.

=A0

Ed

=A0

=A0


----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Steitle

To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:12 AM

Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations


Thanks Richard for the clarification.
=A0

Mark S.

(Looks like I should have typed a little faster.)
=A0

On 6/18/07, Mark Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com> wrote:

Well Ed,

It looks like you've got yourself a new intake project.=A0 Didn't Richard=20
Sohn try running side and peripheral intake porting on his one rotor?=A0=20
I vaguely remember him mentioning=A0it and that he abandoned the idea.=A0 I=20
think it had something to do with=A0the complexity of the dual runners=20
and that he was satisfied with the idle characteristics of the p-port?=A0=20
Maybe Richard can comment?

=A0

Mark S.

=A0

On 6/17/07, Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote:


Ok, here's the answer to my question.=A0 The second image shows a three=20
barrel carb with the primary going to two side intake ports and the=20
secondary going to the Peripheral ports.=A0 Interesting concept.

=A0

Ed


----- Original Message -----
From: Ed Anderson

To: Rotary motors in aircraft

Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:15 PM

Subject: Different Rotary Port configurations


=A0

Ok, getting a bit quite again.=A0 Here is something that some of you may=20
find interesting.=A0 Its a graph comparing the possible different port=20
configurations for the Rotary engine.

The top graph shows the intake and exhaust port opening for a engine=20
with a peripheral intake and peripheral exhaust - such as a 13B which=20
has been converted to a PP intake.

=A0

The trapezoidal shapes show the port area.=A0 For example on the first=20
graph the first rectangular area entitled PORT shows the Peripheral=20
exhaust port open at 63Deg ATDC.=A0 There are two trapezoid areas shown=20
for the Peripheral intake.=A0 A "P" which I presume stands for Primary=20
and a much larger P+S which I presumes stands for a combined primary=20
and Secondary port.=A0 Although, I do not ever recall a PP with two tubes=20
one for primary and one for secondary.=A0 So there may be another=20
explanation.

=A0

The second graph is our traditional 13B with sideport intake and=20
peripheral port exhaust.=A0 Here the intake timing for the intake is that=20
of the NA 13B=A0although it shows the intake opening a bit later than the=20
stock 13B but closing at the stock 40 deg ABDC.

=A0

If you look at the area under the first graphs "P" trapezoid it appears=20
to be open much longer than the P for the side port intake (2nd graph),=20
but the trapezoid is not as high.=A0 Wonder what that signifies? Open=20
longer but not as large a port area?

=A0

Anyhow, thought some of you might find it interesting.=A0 =A0

=A0

=A0

Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html


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