X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2109122 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:42:15 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.104; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l5IDfKas018153 for ; Mon, 18 Jun 2007 09:41:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000b01c7b1b2$76a88880$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:10:45 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7B190.EF412760" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7B190.EF412760 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, Mark - perhaps in the future Only so much time and so many things that would be fun to try. IF I = interpret the charts correctly the P + S type intake configuration = appears to provide much more intake port area than either the P or S = type along. Makes sense - if you have twice as many intakes it has more = area. Supposedly the P+S overcomes the low rpm idle problem of the PP = alone. =20 But, for aircraft usage, I think Richard is on the money, you don't = really spend much time at idle in aircraft usage and I idle above 1600 = rpm in any case, so who cares {:>) - just go with the P port. However, I am intrigued by the large intake area that the P + S = configuration has over even the PP alone and what that might potent for = POWER! More Power, Scotty!!!!! Saw some information on the Renesis in an SAE paper that indicates the = six port (They call it the HIGH POWER Renesis) produces 40% more power = than the standard 13B. They did not make a comparison to the 4 port = Renesis but presumably it produces less than the six port Renesis but = more than the older 13B. They also didn't specify the rpm point that = occurred, but I assume it must be near its maximum. Also, its not clear = if this figure was based on the earlier 250 HP claim for the Renesis by = Mazda or the later adjusted 237 HP claim (actually I'd take either one) = . The intake configuration and operation on the six port is quite = involved, but they do make use of the Dynamic Effect. They call it the = Sequential Dynamic Air Intake System (S-DAIS). Since there is no = intake/exhaust port overlap in the Renesis, they appear to make use of = the "A" pulse which is the pressure wave created when the high velocity = air in the intake slams into the closing port and bounced back down the = manifold. They then have several valves that activate at different = rpm/air flow situations that control the sequential activation of = elements of the S-DAIS. As well as the "A" pulse, the older NA 13B DEI also used the stronger = "B" pulse created when the intake opened releasing a burst of the = trapped exhaust gas residue to create a power shock wave which raised = the manifold pressure at the second rotor's intake. But, since there is = no intake/exhaust overlap with the Renesis side ports, it would appear = that only the "A" pulse is used to enhance power. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Mark Steitle=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 9:12 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: Different Rotary Port configurations Thanks Richard for the clarification. =20 Mark S. (Looks like I should have typed a little faster.) =20 On 6/18/07, Mark Steitle wrote:=20 Well Ed,=20 It looks like you've got yourself a new intake project. Didn't = Richard Sohn try running side and peripheral intake porting on his one = rotor? I vaguely remember him mentioning it and that he abandoned the = idea. I think it had something to do with the complexity of the dual = runners and that he was satisfied with the idle characteristics of the = p-port? Maybe Richard can comment?=20 Mark S. =20 On 6/17/07, Ed Anderson wrote:=20 Ok, here's the answer to my question. The second image shows a = three barrel carb with the primary going to two side intake ports and = the secondary going to the Peripheral ports. Interesting concept.=20 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Ed Anderson=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:15 PM Subject: Different Rotary Port configurations =20 Ok, getting a bit quite again. Here is something that some of you = may find interesting. Its a graph comparing the possible different port = configurations for the Rotary engine. The top graph shows the intake and exhaust port opening for a = engine with a peripheral intake and peripheral exhaust - such as a 13B = which has been converted to a PP intake. The trapezoidal shapes show the port area. For example on the = first graph the first rectangular area entitled PORT shows the = Peripheral exhaust port open at 63Deg ATDC. There are two trapezoid = areas shown for the Peripheral intake. A "P" which I presume stands for = Primary and a much larger P+S which I presumes stands for a combined = primary and Secondary port. Although, I do not ever recall a PP with = two tubes one for primary and one for secondary. So there may be = another explanation.=20 The second graph is our traditional 13B with sideport intake and = peripheral port exhaust. Here the intake timing for the intake is that = of the NA 13B although it shows the intake opening a bit later than the = stock 13B but closing at the stock 40 deg ABDC.=20 If you look at the area under the first graphs "P" trapezoid it = appears to be open much longer than the P for the side port intake (2nd = graph), but the trapezoid is not as high. Wonder what that signifies? = Open longer but not as large a port area?=20 Anyhow, thought some of you might find it interesting. =20 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com=20 http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/=20 Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7B190.EF412760 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, Mark - perhaps in the future
 
Only so much time and so many things that would = be fun to=20 try.  IF I interpret the charts correctly the P + S type intake=20 configuration appears to provide much more intake port area than either = the P or=20 S type along.  Makes sense - if you have twice as many intakes it = has more=20 area.  Supposedly the P+S overcomes the low rpm idle problem of the = PP=20 alone. 
 
But, for aircraft usage, I think Richard is on = the money,=20 you don't really spend much time at idle in aircraft usage  and I = idle=20 above 1600 rpm in any case, so who cares {:>) - just go with the P=20 port.
 
However, I am intrigued by the large intake area = that the=20 P + S configuration has over even the PP  alone and what that might = potent=20 for POWER!  More Power, Scotty!!!!!
 
Saw some information on the Renesis in an SAE = paper that=20 indicates the six port (They call it the HIGH POWER Renesis) produces = 40% more=20 power than the standard 13B.  They did not make a comparison to the = 4 port=20 Renesis but presumably it produces less than the six port Renesis but = more than=20 the older 13B.  They also didn't specify the rpm point that = occurred, but I=20 assume it must be near its maximum.  Also, its not clear if this = figure was=20 based on the earlier 250 HP claim for the Renesis by Mazda or the later = adjusted=20 237 HP claim (actually I'd take either one) .
 
The intake configuration and operation on the = six port is=20 quite involved, but they do make use of the Dynamic Effect.  They = call it=20 the Sequential Dynamic Air Intake System (S-DAIS).  Since there is = no=20 intake/exhaust port overlap in the Renesis, they appear to make use of = the "A"=20 pulse which is the pressure wave created when the high velocity air in = the=20 intake slams into the closing port and bounced back down the=20 manifold.   They then have several valves that activate at = different=20 rpm/air flow situations that control the sequential activation of = elements of=20 the S-DAIS.
 
 As well as the "A" pulse, the older NA 13B = DEI also=20 used the stronger "B" pulse created when the intake opened releasing a = burst of=20 the trapped exhaust gas residue to create a power shock wave which = raised the=20 manifold pressure at the second rotor's intake.  But, since there = is no=20 intake/exhaust  overlap with the Renesis side ports, it would = appear that=20 only the "A" pulse is used to enhance power.
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Mark = Steitle=20
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 = 9:12 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Fw: = Different=20 Rotary Port configurations

Thanks Richard for the clarification.
 
Mark S.
(Looks like I should have typed a little faster.)
 
On 6/18/07, Mark=20 Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>=20 wrote:=20
Well Ed,
It looks like you've got yourself a new intake project.  = Didn't=20 Richard Sohn try running side and peripheral intake porting on his = one=20 rotor?  I vaguely remember him mentioning it and that he = abandoned=20 the idea.  I think it had something to do with the = complexity of=20 the dual runners and that he was satisfied with the idle = characteristics of=20 the p-port?  Maybe Richard can comment?
 
Mark S.

 
On 6/17/07, Ed=20 Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com > wrote:=20
Ok, here's the answer to my = question.  The=20 second image shows a three barrel carb with the primary going to = two side=20 intake ports and the secondary going to the Peripheral = ports. =20 Interesting concept.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Ed = Anderson=20
Sent: Sunday, June 17, 2007 10:15 PM
Subject: Different Rotary Port = configurations

 
Ok, getting a bit quite again.  Here = is=20 something that some of you may find interesting.  Its a graph = comparing the possible different port configurations for the = Rotary=20 engine.
The top graph shows the intake and exhaust = port=20 opening for a engine with a peripheral intake and peripheral = exhaust -=20 such as a 13B which has been converted to a PP = intake.
 
The trapezoidal shapes show the port = area.  For=20 example on the first graph the first rectangular area entitled = PORT shows=20 the Peripheral exhaust port open at 63Deg ATDC.  There are = two=20 trapezoid areas shown for the Peripheral intake.  A "P" which = I=20 presume stands for Primary and a much larger P+S which I presumes = stands=20 for a combined primary and Secondary port.  Although, I do = not ever=20 recall a PP with two tubes one for primary and one for = secondary.  So=20 there may be another explanation.
 
The second graph is our traditional 13B = with=20 sideport intake and peripheral port exhaust.  Here the intake = timing=20 for the intake is that of the NA 13B although it shows the = intake=20 opening a bit later than the stock 13B but closing at the stock 40 = deg=20 ABDC.
 
If you look at the area under the first = graphs "P"=20 trapezoid it appears to be open much longer than the P for the = side port=20 intake (2nd graph), but the trapezoid is not as high.  Wonder = what=20 that signifies? Open longer but not as large a port area? =
 
Anyhow, thought some of you might find it=20 interesting.   
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW=
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html

--
Homepage:=20  http://www.flyrotary.com/=20
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l=20



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