X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from [64.12.137.3] (HELO imo-m22.mail.aol.com) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2096148 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:57:27 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=64.12.137.3; envelope-from=BMears9413@aol.com Received: from BMears9413@aol.com by imo-m22.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r9.2.) id q.bec.1111a3ad (48338) for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from webmail-md19 (webmail-md19.webmail.aol.com [64.12.170.137]) by ciaaol-d02.mail.aol.com (v115.17) with ESMTP id MAILCIAAOLD026-bcd2466d4686259; Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:56:38 -0400 References: To: flyrotary@lancaironline.net Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:56:38 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-MB-Message-Source: WebUI MIME-Version: 1.0 From: bmears9413@aol.com X-MB-Message-Type: User Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="--------MB_8C97A3F15BD8AE2_4B8_2904E_webmail-md19.sysops.aol.com" X-Mailer: AOL WebMail 27618 Received: from 65.182.71.8 by webmail-md19.sysops.aol.com (64.12.170.137) with HTTP (WebMailUI); Mon, 11 Jun 2007 08:56:38 -0400 Message-Id: <8C97A3F15BD8AE2-4B8-16165@webmail-md19.sysops.aol.com> X-AOL-IP: 64.12.170.137 X-Spam-Flag: NO ----------MB_8C97A3F15BD8AE2_4B8_2904E_webmail-md19.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" SAG can appear any where apparently. We ran a MSD system on our race care an= d still ran into the problem. The problem ended when we switched to alcohol,= but thats not a fix for airplanes! Bob Mears Supermarine spitfire -----Original Message----- From: Michael LaFleur To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:58 am Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Maybe LS1 coils will do the trick. There are people out there flying with th= ose, tight? Has anyone had SAG with LS1 coils? Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:12:48 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Hi Mike, =C2=A0 Considering total investment, I agree $400 - for a reliable ignition system=20= is not out of line.=C2=A0 Besides the stock Mazda ignition must weigh close=20= to 10 lbs total =C2=A0for trailing and leading modules - so save some weight= besides.=C2=A0=20 =C2=A0 While I am unaware of anybody suffering a mishap from SAG - as Lynn points o= ut reducing power, reduces compression chamber pressure, reduces misfire - b= ut, it can certainly be disconcerting - and perhaps lead you to incorrect co= nclusions about what is wrong.=C2=A0 I know I spent hours when first encount= ering SAG wondering what was wrong with my injectors - of course, it wasn't=20= the injectors it was the plugs. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Guess, I'm going to have to break down and install the LS1 components I have= in the workshop.=C2=A0 Don't know if the LS1 coils will provide any better=20= anti-fouling spark than stock but at least then I could plug in the LS1 Blas= ter coils. =C2=A0 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael LaFleur=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 11:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning I wouldn't consider NOT having a high energy ignition system over changing p= lugs. I'm sure that SAG is result from the combination of the coil and plugs= used. It's cheap insurance. Why risk it? Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 8:09:38 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Hi Bobby, based on what Lynn has said and my understanding of what is happen= ing with lead fouling, I agree.=C2=A0 However, while they produce 3 times th= e energy they also cost about 3 times as much as a stock LS1 coil - these Bl= aster coils=C2=A0cost $98.56 each.=C2=A0 Which would bring 4 to around $400.= 00. =C2=A0 Spark plugs cost around $7.00 x4 =3D $28 for a set $400/28 =3D 14 changes of= plugs X 25 (avg hours) =3D 357 hours of flying with current system before c= ost of plugs =3D cost of Blaster LS1 coils {:>) =C2=A0 However, if I were just now starting out with a rotary conversion, I would c= ertainly consider it.=C2=A0 I do have a complete installation of regular LS1= coils and=C2=A0connectors sitting in my workshop.=C2=A0 Just need to get th= em installed and the EC2 converted=C2=A0- I'll have to check, but I presume=20= these LS1 coils are a plug-plug replacement, which would mean they would be=20= easy to exchange for the stock LS1 coils. =C2=A0 Now that I think further about it, the piece of mind from not encountering S= AG might well be worth the price alone!=C2=A0 Good suggestion! =C2=A0 Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Ed, =C2=A0 I wish you would test 4 of these. :)=C2=A0If Lynn is correct about high powe= r spark then these might be=C2=A0the ultimate solution. Looks like 3 time th= e energy of our standard LS1 coils.=20 =C2=A0 http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_19_8245.htm =C2=A0 Bobby =C2=A0 From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Here is somebody who pretty much sums up what my research has turned up on L= ead solvents - the only one I found was nitric acid - which I will pass on {= :>) . =C2=A0 There really is no lead solvent. Any chemical that will desolve lead will li= kely disolve YOU. Years ago, before people knew better, shooters used mercur= y. This amalgamated with the lead, and the material could be brushed out. Th= e only problem: mercurey will make you crazy, then dead!! A good non dangerous to you, and non damaging to the bore cleaner is the Lew= is or Hopies lead remover kit. You can also buy a "lead remover cloth" at mo= st gun shops. Cut this into patches and run them down the bore. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ed =C2=A0 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Owen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:47 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Ed, =C2=A0 There is an electro-chemical process shooters use to remove lead from a gun=20= barrel which might work if this is an elemental lead deposit.=C2=A0 Take a l= ook at: http://www.outers-guncare.com/products/chemicals/foul_out_system.asp= x=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeff Owen -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Beha= lf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Spark Plug Cleaning Getting around to see what can be done about the lead fouling sparkplugs=C2= =A0 causing the infamous "SAG".=C2=A0 1st experiment was to place the used s= park plugs in a 30% solution of Hydrogen Peroxide.=C2=A0 I did that and plac= e the plugs and solution in an ultrasonic cleaner, turned it on and left it=20= on for 1 hour. =C2=A0 It appeared to clean everything off the plug - but, the lead.=C2=A0 So far t= he only chemical my research has indicated would dissolved metallic lead is=20= Nitric Acid.=C2=A0 Nope, not going to try that, I'll stick with buying new p= lugs. =C2=A0 But, thought I would let folks know of the results.=C2=A0 I was really hopin= g the ultrasonic vibration would shake the lead crystals off the ceramic con= e of the plug - but either the idea is flawed or the small jewelry cleaning=20= size ultrasonic generator is simply not powerful enough. =C2=A0 Ed =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from= AOL at AOL.com. ----------MB_8C97A3F15BD8AE2_4B8_2904E_webmail-md19.sysops.aol.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" SAG can appear any where apparently. We ran a MSD system on our race care and still ran into the problem. The= problem ended when we switched to alcohol, but thats not a fix for airplanes!

Bob Mears
Supermarine spitfire


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael LaFleur
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Sent: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:58 am
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

M= aybe LS1 coils will do the trick. There are people out=20= there flying with those, tight?

Has anyone had SAG with LS1 coils?

Mike LaFleur

----- Original Message ----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@ca= rolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:12:48 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Hi Mike,
=C2=A0
Considering total investment, I agree $400 - for a r= eliable ignition system is not out of line.=C2=A0 Besides the stock Mazda ig= nition must weigh close to 10 lbs total =C2=A0for trailing and leading modul= es - so save some weight besides.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
While I am unaware of anybody suffering a mishap fro= m SAG - as Lynn points out reducing power, reduces compression chamber press= ure, reduces misfire - but, it can certainly be disconcerting - and perhaps=20= lead you to incorrect conclusions about what is wrong.=C2=A0 I know I spent=20= hours when first encountering SAG wondering what was wrong with my injectors= - of course, it wasn't the injectors it was the plugs.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Guess, I'm going to have to break down and install t= he LS1 components I have in the workshop.=C2=A0 Don't k= now if the LS1 coils will provide any better anti-fouli= ng spark than stock but at least then I could plug in the LS1<= /SPAN> Blaster coils.
=C2=A0
Ed
Rotary motors in aircraft
I= wouldn't consider NOT having a high energy ignition system over changing pl= ugs. I'm sure that SAG is result from the combination of the coil and plugs=20= used.

It's cheap insurance. Why risk it?

Mike LaFleur

----- Original Message ----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 8:09:38 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Hi Bobby, based on what Lynn has said and my underst= anding of what is happening with lead fouling, I agree.=C2=A0 However, while= they produce 3 times the energy they also cost about 3 times as much as a s= tock LS1 coil - these Blaster coils=C2=A0cost $98.56 ea= ch.=C2=A0 Which would bring 4 to around $400.00.
=C2=A0
Spark plugs cost around $7.00 x4 =3D $28 for a set $400/28 =3D 14 changes of plugs X 25 (avg<= /SPAN> hours) =3D 357 hours of flying with current system before cost of plu= gs =3D cost of Blaster LS1 coils {:>)
=C2=A0
However, if I were just now starting out with a rota= ry conversion, I would certainly consider it.=C2=A0 I do have a complete ins= tallation of regular LS1 coils and=C2=A0connectors sitt= ing in my workshop.=C2=A0 Just need to get them installed and the EC2 converted=C2=A0- I'll have to check, but I presume these LS1 coils are a plug-plug replacement, which would mean t= hey would be easy to exchange for the stock LS1 coils.<= /FONT>
=C2=A0
Now that I think further about it, the piece of mind= from not encountering SAG might well be worth the price alone!=C2=A0 Good s= uggestion!
=C2=A0
Ed
Rotary motors in aircraft
LS1 coils.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Bobby

=C2=A0
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrota= ry@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:07 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Here is somebody who pretty much sums up what my res= earch has turned up on Lead solvents - the only one I found was nitric acid=20= - which I will pass on {:>)
.
=C2=A0
There really is no lead solvent. Any chemical that wil= l desolve lead will likely disolve= YOU. Years ago, before people knew better, shooters used mercury. This amal= gamated with the lead, and the material could be brushed out. The only probl= em: mercurey will make you crazy, then dead!!

A good non dangerous to you, and non damaging to the bore cleaner is the Lew= is or Hopies lead remover kit. You can also buy a "lead= remover cloth" at most gun shops. Cut this into patches and run them down t= he bore.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Ed
=C2=A0
From: Jeff Owen
Rotary motors in aircraft
http://www.outers-guncare= .com/products/chemicals/foul_out_system.aspx=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Jeff Owen
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] = On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Spark Plug Cleaning

Getting around to see what can be done about the lea= d fouling sparkplugs=C2=A0 causing the infamous "SAG".= =C2=A0 1st experiment was to place the used spark plugs in a 30% solution of= Hydrogen Peroxide.=C2=A0 I did that and place the plugs and solution in an=20= ultrasonic cleaner, turned it on and left it on for 1 hour.
=C2=A0
It appeared to clean everything off the plug - but,=20= the lead.=C2=A0 So far the only chemical my research has indicated would dis= solved metallic lead is Nitric Acid.=C2=A0 Nope, not going to try that, I'll= stick with buying new plugs.
=C2=A0
But, thought I would let folks know of the results.= =C2=A0 I was really hoping the ultrasonic vibration would shake the lead cry= stals off the ceramic cone of the plug - but either the idea is flawed or th= e small jewelry cleaning size ultrasonic generator is simply not powerful en= ough.
=C2=A0
Ed
=C2=A0
=C2=A0


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