X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from an-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.132.246] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2095461 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 20:40:26 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=209.85.132.246; envelope-from=msteitle@gmail.com Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b2so271708ana for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:39:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=j8VYlG/1WCHmK4vydJxMsYyyhLhAXdMAyR7X/wuJDDlUYDuwwuOLtN/EkP2XYKpL85SBQAYK9Z2V4/wU7bC9IPf/dMA/QnljlEvZRSY1R84CQt6jVPDZ+bEJl+BqeU4wkSIZE2Dqj+T9DUCrnBAadVFzOMqD/Me0fRnezUULkX4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=iCpDVc5FMmVFNNhbhbXiLI4+LUfdghXTBEyzMpy3mtHhFqlAdRaNY2t3UpRPEWSo99Bpz5+SGFL5WVeJ/qLW/ANm+Jc1MxSlqsHGtjz6B0P0a6ibudR+LSxjvqGvksm++3d0UU0Luseg4mkwMRMDsxvICXWJ7GaKJamU9UvjQGQ= Received: by 10.100.250.7 with SMTP id x7mr3010356anh.1181522389602; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.38.20 with HTTP; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 17:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5cf132c0706101739k1d818048k1a57d3e1c96b7e81@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:39:49 -0500 From: "Mark Steitle" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil temp limit In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_94041_13209047.1181522389562" References: ------=_Part_94041_13209047.1181522389562 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Al, Thanks for sharing your oil pressure numbers. I feel better about what I'm seeing now. Mark On 6/10/07, Al Gietzen wrote: > > Mark; > > > > I think your pressure is just fine. I was told by Atkins that he had > installed a 100 psi relief valve, and early on I did see 100psi pressure > when the engine was cool. After 40 some hours on the engine now I see > pressure of 50-60 at idly at operating temp, and about 80 at power and hi= gh > oil temp. > > > > I had my oil cooler designed and tested to 150 psi. I use dual K&N HP300= 1 > filters on a remote mount between the engine exit and the cooler. > > > > Al > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] *O= n > Behalf Of *Mark Steitle > *Sent:* Saturday, June 09, 2007 3:54 PM > *To:* Rotary motors in aircraft > *Subject:* [FlyRotary] Re: Oil temp limit > > > > Lynn, > > > > Can you address the oil pressure limits too please. My 20B runs in the > 90's (warm). Will this hurt anything. In order to check/modify the reli= ef > valve, I would have to remove the oil pan which means removing the engine > from the airframe. If I'm ok running in this range, I will leave it as i= s. > I would like to hear your take on this. > > > > Thanks, > > Mark S. > > > > On 6/9/07, *Lehanover@aol.com* wrote: > > In a message dated 6/9/2007 12:56:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > ALVentures@cox.net writes: > > I guess we've had this discussion before but to me it still seems like a > grey area. > > > > The limit has to do with temperature, time, and limiting component. > > > > At typical cruise conditions I have coolant temps of 160-170F and oil > temps about 20 degrees higher. Short term climb out (1000 =96 2000') I s= ee > oil getting up 215 -220 and coolant around 200. If I continue climb, I n= eed > to reduce power to keep them at those levels; which means climb rates of > 500-700 FPM with OAT of 65F, and maybe a bit less if OAT is higher. I do= n't > like being limited to that climb rate when I have power for considerably > more; but the real question is: Is that temp level an issue if sustained = for > 10-15 minutes? And what is it affecting? > > > > I expect to make some modification to improve airflow through the cooler, > just deciding if it is urgent or if it can wait for another 10 -20 hrs of > flying. Anytime I go east from my airport I have to climb from 1400' to > about 7000' to clear high terrain. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Al > > The object of controlling oil temperature is that temps above 160 degree= s > begins to reduce power as rotor face temps begin to limit cylinder fillin= g. > > > > Second, > > The oil temperatures in the wedge will be very much higher than the > temperature being reported on the gage. The bearing area is way over size= d > for the stress levels involved and at the low RPM in aviation use, the > bearings will not fail from stress. > > > > However the soft overlay on the bearing face has a low melting point. Oil > moving off the bearing carries away the heat from wedge oil. In racing th= e > higher oil pressures used, helps perform this function. > > > > Some racers just machine off the overlay and run on the copper. Good > bearing material, and a high melting point. Extra clearance allows more o= il > flow for a given pressure. > > > > The rotor face can run as high as 400 degrees, and the oil is removing > most of that. > > By the time you get to 230 degrees in the sump you are walking on thin > ice, as far as rotor bearings is concerned. You could go higher with less > throttle (stress from wedge heat) but in the end I think you need more oi= l > cooling. > > > > The race car needs 90 water tops and 190 oil tops. At 100 PSI. > > > > Lynn E Hanover > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > See what's free at AOL.com . > > > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > > ------=_Part_94041_13209047.1181522389562 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
Al,
 
Thanks for sharing your oil pressure numbers.  I feel better abou= t what I'm seeing now. 
 
Mark

 
On 6/10/07, = Al Gietzen <ALVentures@cox.net= > wrote:

Mark;

 

I think your pressure is just f= ine. I was told by Atkins that he had installed a 100 psi relief valve, and= early on I did see 100psi pressure when the engine was cool.  After 4= 0 some hours on the engine now I see pressure of 50-60 at idly at operating= temp, and about 80 at power and high oil temp.

 

I had my oil cooler designed an= d tested to 150 psi.  I use dual K&N HP3001 filters on a remote mo= unt between the engine exit and the cooler.

 

Al

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircra= ft [mailto: flyrotary@lancaironline.net<= /a>] On Behalf Of Mark Stei= tle
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 20= 07 3:54 PM
To: Rotary mo= tors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil temp limit

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Lynn,

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Can you address the oil pressure limits too = please.  My 20B runs in the 90's (warm).  Will this hurt anyt= hing.  In order to check/modify the relief valve, I would have to remo= ve the oil pan which means removing the engine from the airframe.  If = I'm ok running in this range, I will leave it as is.  I would like= to hear your take on this.=20

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> 

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanks,

<= span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Mark S.

 

On 6/9/07, Lehanover@aol.com <L= ehanover@aol.com> wrote:

In= a message dated 6/9/2007 12:56:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ALVentures@cox.net writes:

= I guess we've had this discussion before but to me it still seems like = a grey area.

=  

= The limit has to do with temperature, time, and limiting component. =

=  

= At typical cruise conditions I have coolant temps of 160-170F and oil temps= about 20 degrees higher.  Short term climb out (1000 =96 2000') I= see oil getting up 215 -220 and coolant around 200.  If I continue cl= imb, I need to reduce power to keep them at those levels; which means climb= rates of 500-700 FPM with OAT of 65F, and maybe a bit less if OAT is highe= r.  I don't like being limited to that climb rate when I have powe= r for considerably more; but the real question is: Is that temp level an is= sue if sustained for 10-15 minutes? And what is it affecting?=20

=  

= I expect to make some modification to improve airflow through the cooler, j= ust deciding if it is urgent or if it can wait for another 10 -20 hrs of fl= ying. Anytime I go east from my airport I have to climb from 1400' to a= bout 7000' to clear high terrain.=20

=  

= Thanks,

=  

=  Al

Th= e object of controlling oil temperature is that temps above 160 degrees beg= ins to reduce power as rotor face temps begin to limit cylinder filling.=20

&n= bsp;

Se= cond,

Th= e oil temperatures in the wedge will be very much higher than the temperatu= re being reported on the gage. The bearing area is way over sized for the s= tress levels involved and at the low RPM in aviation use, the bearings will= not fail from stress.=20

&n= bsp;

Ho= wever the soft overlay on the bearing face has a low melting point. Oil mov= ing off the bearing carries away the heat from wedge oil. In racing the hig= her oil pressures used, helps perform this function.=20

&n= bsp;

So= me racers just machine off the overlay and run on the copper. Good bearing = material, and a high melting point. Extra clearance allows more oil flow fo= r a given pressure.

&n= bsp;

Th= e rotor face can run as high as 400 degrees, and the oil is removing most o= f that.  

By= the time you get to 230 degrees in the sump you are walking on thin ice, a= s far as rotor bearings is concerned. You could go higher with less throttl= e (stress from wedge heat) but in the end I think you need more oil cooling= .=20

&n= bsp;

Th= e race car needs 90 water tops and 190 oil tops. At 100 PSI. =

&n= bsp;

Ly= nn E Hanover 

&n= bsp;

&n= bsp;



See what's free at AOL.com.


-= -
Homepage:   http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and UnSub:   http://mail.lancairo= nline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html


 = ;


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