X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.104] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2095098 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:59:03 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.104; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-05.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l5AHwETW009478 for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 13:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <000b01c7ab89$8b71d1b0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 14:02:43 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7AB68.040F2B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7AB68.040F2B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MessageMike, Tracy is the only one I know for certain, but I presume others are. = Tracy doesn't really count because he uses auto fuel rather than 100LL = (rarely). If any one is flying with LS1 coils AND using 100LL regularly = I also would like to hear if you have experience SAG or not? It could = cause me to expedite my slow conversion to LS1 - well, I do have the = parts {:>) Ed =20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael LaFleur=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 11:58 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Maybe LS1 coils will do the trick. There are people out there flying = with those, tight? Has anyone had SAG with LS1 coils? Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:12:48 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Hi Mike, Considering total investment, I agree $400 - for a reliable ignition = system is not out of line. Besides the stock Mazda ignition must weigh = close to 10 lbs total for trailing and leading modules - so save some = weight besides. =20 While I am unaware of anybody suffering a mishap from SAG - as Lynn = points out reducing power, reduces compression chamber pressure, reduces = misfire - but, it can certainly be disconcerting - and perhaps lead you = to incorrect conclusions about what is wrong. I know I spent hours when = first encountering SAG wondering what was wrong with my injectors - of = course, it wasn't the injectors it was the plugs. Guess, I'm going to have to break down and install the LS1 components = I have in the workshop. Don't know if the LS1 coils will provide any = better anti-fouling spark than stock but at least then I could plug in = the LS1 Blaster coils. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michael LaFleur=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 11:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning I wouldn't consider NOT having a high energy ignition system over = changing plugs. I'm sure that SAG is result from the combination of the = coil and plugs used. It's cheap insurance. Why risk it? Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 8:09:38 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Hi Bobby, based on what Lynn has said and my understanding of what = is happening with lead fouling, I agree. However, while they produce 3 = times the energy they also cost about 3 times as much as a stock LS1 = coil - these Blaster coils cost $98.56 each. Which would bring 4 to = around $400.00. Spark plugs cost around $7.00 x4 =3D $28 for a set $400/28 =3D 14 = changes of plugs X 25 (avg hours) =3D 357 hours of flying with current = system before cost of plugs =3D cost of Blaster LS1 coils {:>) However, if I were just now starting out with a rotary conversion, I = would certainly consider it. I do have a complete installation of = regular LS1 coils and connectors sitting in my workshop. Just need to = get them installed and the EC2 converted - I'll have to check, but I = presume these LS1 coils are a plug-plug replacement, which would mean = they would be easy to exchange for the stock LS1 coils. Now that I think further about it, the piece of mind from not = encountering SAG might well be worth the price alone! Good suggestion! Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Bobby J. Hughes=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Ed, I wish you would test 4 of these. :) If Lynn is correct about high = power spark then these might be the ultimate solution. Looks like 3 time = the energy of our standard LS1 coils.=20 http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_19_8245.htm Bobby =20 -------------------------------------------------------------------------= - From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Here is somebody who pretty much sums up what my research has = turned up on Lead solvents - the only one I found was nitric acid - = which I will pass on {:>) . There really is no lead solvent. Any chemical that will desolve = lead will likely disolve YOU. Years ago, before people knew better, = shooters used mercury. This amalgamated with the lead, and the material = could be brushed out. The only problem: mercurey will make you crazy, = then dead!! A good non dangerous to you, and non damaging to the bore cleaner = is the Lewis or Hopies lead remover kit. You can also buy a "lead = remover cloth" at most gun shops. Cut this into patches and run them = down the bore. Ed ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Jeff Owen=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:47 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Ed, There is an electro-chemical process shooters use to remove lead = from a gun barrel which might work if this is an elemental lead deposit. = Take a look at: = http://www.outers-guncare.com/products/chemicals/foul_out_system.aspx=20 Jeff Owen -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft = [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Spark Plug Cleaning Getting around to see what can be done about the lead fouling = sparkplugs causing the infamous "SAG". 1st experiment was to place the = used spark plugs in a 30% solution of Hydrogen Peroxide. I did that and = place the plugs and solution in an ultrasonic cleaner, turned it on and = left it on for 1 hour. It appeared to clean everything off the plug - but, the lead. = So far the only chemical my research has indicated would dissolved = metallic lead is Nitric Acid. Nope, not going to try that, I'll stick = with buying new plugs. But, thought I would let folks know of the results. I was = really hoping the ultrasonic vibration would shake the lead crystals off = the ceramic cone of the plug - but either the idea is flawed or the = small jewelry cleaning size ultrasonic generator is simply not powerful = enough. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7AB68.040F2B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message
Mike,
 
Tracy is the only one I know for certain, but I = presume=20 others are.  Tracy doesn't really count because he uses auto fuel = rather=20 than 100LL (rarely).  If any one is flying with LS1 coils AND using = 100LL=20 regularly I also would like to hear if you have experience SAG or = not?  It=20 could cause me to expedite my slow conversion to LS1 - well, I do have = the parts=20 {:>)
 
Ed
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael LaFleur
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 = 11:58=20 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark = Plug=20 Cleaning

Maybe=20 LS1 coils will do the trick. There are people out there flying with = those,=20 tight?

Has anyone had SAG with LS1 coils?

Mike = LaFleur

-----=20 Original Message ----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com&g= t;
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent:=20 Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:12:48 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark = Plug=20 Cleaning

Hi Mike,
 
Considering total investment, I agree $400 - = for a=20 reliable ignition system is not out of line.  Besides the stock = Mazda=20 ignition must weigh close to 10 lbs total  for trailing and = leading=20 modules - so save some weight besides. 
 
While I am unaware of anybody suffering a = mishap from=20 SAG - as Lynn points out reducing power, reduces compression chamber = pressure,=20 reduces misfire - but, it can certainly be disconcerting - and perhaps = lead=20 you to incorrect conclusions about what is wrong.  I know I spent = hours=20 when first encountering SAG wondering what was wrong with my injectors = - of=20 course, it wasn't the injectors it was the plugs.
 
 
Guess, I'm going to have to break down and = install the=20 LS1 components I have in the workshop.  Don't know if the LS1 = coils will=20 provide any better anti-fouling spark than stock but at least then I = could=20 plug in the LS1 Blaster coils.
 
Ed
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Michael LaFleur
To:=20 Rotary=20 motors in aircraft Sent:=20 Saturday, June 09, 2007 11:15 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

I=20 wouldn't consider NOT having a high energy ignition system over = changing=20 plugs. I'm sure that SAG is result from the combination of the coil = and=20 plugs used.

It's cheap insurance. Why risk it?

Mike=20 LaFleur

-----=20 Original Message ----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary = motors in=20 aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Saturday, June 9,=20 2007 8:09:38 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug = Cleaning

Hi Bobby, based on what Lynn has said and my = understanding of what is happening with lead fouling, I agree.  = However, while they produce 3 times the energy they also cost about = 3 times=20 as much as a stock LS1 coil - these Blaster coils cost $98.56=20 each.  Which would bring 4 to around $400.00.
 
Spark plugs cost around $7.00 x4 =3D $28 for = a set=20 $400/28 =3D 14 changes of plugs X 25 (avg hours) =3D 357 hours of = flying with=20 current system before cost of plugs =3D cost of Blaster LS1 coils=20 {:>)
 
However, if I were just now starting out = with a rotary=20 conversion, I would certainly consider it.  I do have a = complete=20 installation of regular LS1 coils and connectors sitting in my=20 workshop.  Just need to get them installed and the EC2 = converted -=20 I'll have to check, but I presume these LS1 coils are a plug-plug=20 replacement, which would mean they would be easy to exchange for the = stock=20 LS1 coils.
 
Now that I think further about it, the piece = of mind=20 from not encountering SAG might well be worth the price alone!  = Good=20 suggestion!
 
Ed
-----=20 Original Message -----
From:=20 Bobby J. Hughes
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft Sent:=20 Friday, June 08, 2007 10:19 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Ed,
 
I wish you would test 4 of these. = :) If Lynn is=20 correct about high power spark then these might be the = ultimate=20 solution. Looks like 3 time the energy of our standard LS1 coils.=20
 
http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_19_8245.htm
 
Bobby

 
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed=20 Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:07 = PM
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark = Plug=20 Cleaning

Here is somebody who pretty much sums up = what my=20 research has turned up on Lead solvents - the only one I found was = nitric=20 acid - which I will pass on {:>)
.
 
There really is no lead solvent. Any = chemical that=20 will desolve lead will likely disolve YOU. Years ago, before = people knew=20 better, shooters used mercury. This amalgamated with the lead, and = the=20 material could be brushed out. The only problem: mercurey will = make you=20 crazy, then dead!!

A good non dangerous to you, and non = damaging to=20 the bore cleaner is the Lewis or Hopies lead remover kit. You can = also buy=20 a "lead remover cloth" at most gun shops. Cut this into patches = and run=20 them down the bore.
 
 
Ed
 
-----=20 Original Message ----- From:=20 Jeff Owen To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft Sent:=20 Friday, June 08, 2007 8:47 PM Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Ed,
 
There is an electro-chemical process shooters use to = remove lead=20 from a gun barrel which might work if this is an elemental lead=20 deposit.  Take a look at: http://www.outers-guncare.com/products/chemicals/foul_out_= system.aspx 
 
Jeff Owen
-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary=20 motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On = Behalf=20 Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:11=20 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject:=20 [FlyRotary] Spark Plug Cleaning

Getting around to see what can be done = about the=20 lead fouling sparkplugs  causing the infamous = "SAG".  1st=20 experiment was to place the used spark plugs in a 30% solution = of=20 Hydrogen Peroxide.  I did that and place the plugs and = solution=20 in an ultrasonic cleaner, turned it on and left it on for 1=20 hour.
 
It appeared to clean everything off = the plug -=20 but, the lead.  So far the only chemical my research has=20 indicated would dissolved metallic lead is Nitric Acid.  = Nope,=20 not going to try that, I'll stick with buying new = plugs.
 
But, thought I would let folks know of = the=20 results.  I was really hoping the ultrasonic vibration = would=20 shake the lead crystals off the ceramic cone of the plug - but = either=20 the idea is flawed or the small jewelry cleaning size = ultrasonic=20 generator is simply not powerful enough.
 
Ed
 
 
Ed Anderson
Rv-6A N494BW Rotary=20 Powered
Matthews, NC
eanderson@carolina.rr.com
http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW<= /A>
http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html


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