X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.199.111] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with SMTP id 2094904 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 12:05:38 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.142.199.111; envelope-from=mike.lafleur@sbcglobal.net Received: (qmail 9300 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Jun 2007 15:58:57 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=sbcglobal.net; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=6SEMplSwLWKU2PiqkO2X66mppVUp+6HoL3wPYvwUUHUaOPSVg2KnNeNG9LNlODbyevndLBIGqIHb6H5Tpu677OXLIog+VOqaAo0P4w2vbUBuVSU6jpVdmUBPC5QuUg3fDk2X6x0h8VV3TTVj0gj43z4vfoRqmELHQ6lZHK6hlO0=; X-YMail-OSG: 6H9xR24VM1mlzExrDkN3Zt_xTN0H4q7b.y2fnGdcGDw0_P6kp7oxgsdCCXrNv3wmj2gvWhdUXUBPuN8UcJsYXPsG8HHLznNnjRz9NzMpjQw6dSKfkZA4L5yE4ylzbA-- Received: from [12.153.240.74] by web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:58:56 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/478 YahooMailWebService/0.7.41.14 Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 08:58:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael LaFleur Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning To: Rotary motors in aircraft MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1097870900-1181491136=:8059" Message-ID: <996310.8059.qm@web81207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --0-1097870900-1181491136=:8059 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii Maybe LS1 coils will do the trick. There are people out there flying with those, tight? Has anyone had SAG with LS1 coils? Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:12:48 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Message DIV { MARGIN:0px;} Hi Mike, Considering total investment, I agree $400 - for a reliable ignition system is not out of line. Besides the stock Mazda ignition must weigh close to 10 lbs total for trailing and leading modules - so save some weight besides. While I am unaware of anybody suffering a mishap from SAG - as Lynn points out reducing power, reduces compression chamber pressure, reduces misfire - but, it can certainly be disconcerting - and perhaps lead you to incorrect conclusions about what is wrong. I know I spent hours when first encountering SAG wondering what was wrong with my injectors - of course, it wasn't the injectors it was the plugs. Guess, I'm going to have to break down and install the LS1 components I have in the workshop. Don't know if the LS1 coils will provide any better anti-fouling spark than stock but at least then I could plug in the LS1 Blaster coils. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael LaFleur To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 11:15 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning I wouldn't consider NOT having a high energy ignition system over changing plugs. I'm sure that SAG is result from the combination of the coil and plugs used. It's cheap insurance. Why risk it? Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Ed Anderson To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 8:09:38 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Hi Bobby, based on what Lynn has said and my understanding of what is happening with lead fouling, I agree. However, while they produce 3 times the energy they also cost about 3 times as much as a stock LS1 coil - these Blaster coils cost $98.56 each. Which would bring 4 to around $400.00. Spark plugs cost around $7.00 x4 = $28 for a set $400/28 = 14 changes of plugs X 25 (avg hours) = 357 hours of flying with current system before cost of plugs = cost of Blaster LS1 coils {:>) However, if I were just now starting out with a rotary conversion, I would certainly consider it. I do have a complete installation of regular LS1 coils and connectors sitting in my workshop. Just need to get them installed and the EC2 converted - I'll have to check, but I presume these LS1 coils are a plug-plug replacement, which would mean they would be easy to exchange for the stock LS1 coils. Now that I think further about it, the piece of mind from not encountering SAG might well be worth the price alone! Good suggestion! Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Bobby J. Hughes To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:19 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Ed, I wish you would test 4 of these. :) If Lynn is correct about high power spark then these might be the ultimate solution. Looks like 3 time the energy of our standard LS1 coils. http://www.msdignition.com/coil_blaster_19_8245.htm Bobby From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:07 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Here is somebody who pretty much sums up what my research has turned up on Lead solvents - the only one I found was nitric acid - which I will pass on {:>) . There really is no lead solvent. Any chemical that will desolve lead will likely disolve YOU. Years ago, before people knew better, shooters used mercury. This amalgamated with the lead, and the material could be brushed out. The only problem: mercurey will make you crazy, then dead!! A good non dangerous to you, and non damaging to the bore cleaner is the Lewis or Hopies lead remover kit. You can also buy a "lead remover cloth" at most gun shops. Cut this into patches and run them down the bore. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeff Owen To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:47 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning Ed, There is an electro-chemical process shooters use to remove lead from a gun barrel which might work if this is an elemental lead deposit. Take a look at: http://www.outers-guncare.com/products/chemicals/foul_out_system.aspx Jeff Owen -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:11 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Spark Plug Cleaning Getting around to see what can be done about the lead fouling sparkplugs causing the infamous "SAG". 1st experiment was to place the used spark plugs in a 30% solution of Hydrogen Peroxide. I did that and place the plugs and solution in an ultrasonic cleaner, turned it on and left it on for 1 hour. It appeared to clean everything off the plug - but, the lead. So far the only chemical my research has indicated would dissolved metallic lead is Nitric Acid. Nope, not going to try that, I'll stick with buying new plugs. But, thought I would let folks know of the results. I was really hoping the ultrasonic vibration would shake the lead crystals off the ceramic cone of the plug - but either the idea is flawed or the small jewelry cleaning size ultrasonic generator is simply not powerful enough. Ed Ed Anderson Rv-6A N494BW Rotary Powered Matthews, NC eanderson@carolina.rr.com http://members.cox.net/rogersda/rotary/configs.htm#N494BW http://www.dmack.net/mazda/index.html --0-1097870900-1181491136=:8059 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ascii
Maybe LS1 coils will do the trick. There are people out there flying with those, tight?

Has anyone had SAG with LS1 coils?

Mike LaFleur

----- Original Message ----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2007 8:12:48 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Message
Hi Mike,
 
Considering total investment, I agree $400 - for a reliable ignition system is not out of line.  Besides the stock Mazda ignition must weigh close to 10 lbs total  for trailing and leading modules - so save some weight besides. 
 
While I am unaware of anybody suffering a mishap from SAG - as Lynn points out reducing power, reduces compression chamber pressure, reduces misfire - but, it can certainly be disconcerting - and perhaps lead you to incorrect conclusions about what is wrong.  I know I spent hours when first encountering SAG wondering what was wrong with my injectors - of course, it wasn't the injectors it was the plugs.
 
 
Guess, I'm going to have to break down and install the LS1 components I have in the workshop.  Don't know if the LS1 coils will provide any better anti-fouling spark than stock but at least then I could plug in the LS1 Blaster coils.
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 11:15 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

I wouldn't consider NOT having a high energy ignition system over changing plugs. I'm sure that SAG is result from the combination of the coil and plugs used.

It's cheap insurance. Why risk it?

Mike LaFleur

----- Original Message ----
From: Ed Anderson <eanderson@carolina.rr.com>
To: Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: Saturday, June 9, 2007 8:09:38 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Hi Bobby, based on what Lynn has said and my understanding of what is happening with lead fouling, I agree.  However, while they produce 3 times the energy they also cost about 3 times as much as a stock LS1 coil - these Blaster coils cost $98.56 each.  Which would bring 4 to around $400.00.
 
Spark plugs cost around $7.00 x4 = $28 for a set $400/28 = 14 changes of plugs X 25 (avg hours) = 357 hours of flying with current system before cost of plugs = cost of Blaster LS1 coils {:>)
 
However, if I were just now starting out with a rotary conversion, I would certainly consider it.  I do have a complete installation of regular LS1 coils and connectors sitting in my workshop.  Just need to get them installed and the EC2 converted - I'll have to check, but I presume these LS1 coils are a plug-plug replacement, which would mean they would be easy to exchange for the stock LS1 coils.
 
Now that I think further about it, the piece of mind from not encountering SAG might well be worth the price alone!  Good suggestion!
 
Ed
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 10:19 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Ed,
 
I wish you would test 4 of these. :) If Lynn is correct about high power spark then these might be the ultimate solution. Looks like 3 time the energy of our standard LS1 coils.
 
 
Bobby

 
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 7:07 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Here is somebody who pretty much sums up what my research has turned up on Lead solvents - the only one I found was nitric acid - which I will pass on {:>)
.
 
There really is no lead solvent. Any chemical that will desolve lead will likely disolve YOU. Years ago, before people knew better, shooters used mercury. This amalgamated with the lead, and the material could be brushed out. The only problem: mercurey will make you crazy, then dead!!

A good non dangerous to you, and non damaging to the bore cleaner is the Lewis or Hopies lead remover kit. You can also buy a "lead remover cloth" at most gun shops. Cut this into patches and run them down the bore.
 
 
Ed
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Owen
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 8:47 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Spark Plug Cleaning

Ed,
 
There is an electro-chemical process shooters use to remove lead from a gun barrel which might work if this is an elemental lead deposit.  Take a look at: http://www.outers-guncare.com/products/chemicals/foul_out_system.aspx 
 
Jeff Owen
-----Original Message-----
From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Ed Anderson
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 1:11 PM
To: Rotary motors in aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Spark Plug Cleaning

Getting around to see what can be done about the lead fouling sparkplugs  causing the infamous "SAG".  1st experiment was to place the used spark plugs in a 30% solution of Hydrogen Peroxide.  I did that and place the plugs and solution in an ultrasonic cleaner, turned it on and left it on for 1 hour.
 
It appeared to clean everything off the plug - but, the lead.  So far the only chemical my research has indicated would dissolved metallic lead is Nitric Acid.  Nope, not going to try that, I'll stick with buying new plugs.
 
But, thought I would let folks know of the results.  I was really hoping the ultrasonic vibration would shake the lead crystals off the ceramic cone of the plug - but either the idea is flawed or the small jewelry cleaning size ultrasonic generator is simply not powerful enough.
 
Ed
 
 


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