X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from fed1rmmtao107.cox.net ([68.230.241.39] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2094769 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:12:51 -0400 Received-SPF: none receiver=logan.com; client-ip=68.230.241.39; envelope-from=alventures@cox.net Received: from fed1rmimpo02.cox.net ([70.169.32.72]) by fed1rmmtao107.cox.net (InterMail vM.7.05.02.00 201-2174-114-20060621) with ESMTP id <20070610141209.GXVW12556.fed1rmmtao107.cox.net@fed1rmimpo02.cox.net> for ; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:12:09 -0400 Received: from BigAl ([72.192.132.90]) by fed1rmimpo02.cox.net with bizsmtp id 9qC91X00B1xAn3c0000000; Sun, 10 Jun 2007 10:12:09 -0400 From: "Al Gietzen" To: "'Rotary motors in aircraft'" Subject: RE: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil temp limit Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2007 07:13:22 -0800 Message-ID: <000001c7ab71$e2fd3e50$6400a8c0@BigAl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01C7AB2E.D4D9FE50" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C7AB2E.D4D9FE50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark; =20 I think your pressure is just fine. I was told by Atkins that he had installed a 100 psi relief valve, and early on I did see 100psi pressure when the engine was cool. After 40 some hours on the engine now I see pressure of 50-60 at idly at operating temp, and about 80 at power and = high oil temp. =20 I had my oil cooler designed and tested to 150 psi. I use dual K&N = HP3001 filters on a remote mount between the engine exit and the cooler. =20 Al =20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Rotary motors in aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 3:54 PM To: Rotary motors in aircraft Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Oil temp limit =20 Lynn,=20 =20 Can you address the oil pressure limits too please. My 20B runs in the = 90's (warm). Will this hurt anything. In order to check/modify the relief valve, I would have to remove the oil pan which means removing the = engine from the airframe. If I'm ok running in this range, I will leave it as = is. I would like to hear your take on this.=20 =20 Thanks, Mark S. =20 On 6/9/07, Lehanover@aol.com wrote:=20 In a message dated 6/9/2007 12:56:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ALVentures@cox.net writes: I guess we've had this discussion before but to me it still seems like a grey area. =20 The limit has to do with temperature, time, and limiting component.=20 =20 At typical cruise conditions I have coolant temps of 160-170F and oil = temps about 20 degrees higher. Short term climb out (1000 - 2000') I see oil getting up 215 -220 and coolant around 200. If I continue climb, I need = to reduce power to keep them at those levels; which means climb rates of 500-700 FPM with OAT of 65F, and maybe a bit less if OAT is higher. I = don't like being limited to that climb rate when I have power for considerably more; but the real question is: Is that temp level an issue if sustained = for 10-15 minutes? And what is it affecting?=20 =20 I expect to make some modification to improve airflow through the = cooler, just deciding if it is urgent or if it can wait for another 10 -20 hrs = of flying. Anytime I go east from my airport I have to climb from 1400' to about 7000' to clear high terrain.=20 =20 Thanks, =20 Al The object of controlling oil temperature is that temps above 160 = degrees begins to reduce power as rotor face temps begin to limit cylinder = filling.=20 =20 Second,=20 The oil temperatures in the wedge will be very much higher than the temperature being reported on the gage. The bearing area is way over = sized for the stress levels involved and at the low RPM in aviation use, the bearings will not fail from stress.=20 =20 However the soft overlay on the bearing face has a low melting point. = Oil moving off the bearing carries away the heat from wedge oil. In racing = the higher oil pressures used, helps perform this function.=20 =20 Some racers just machine off the overlay and run on the copper. Good = bearing material, and a high melting point. Extra clearance allows more oil flow = for a given pressure. =20 The rotor face can run as high as 400 degrees, and the oil is removing = most of that. =20 By the time you get to 230 degrees in the sump you are walking on thin = ice, as far as rotor bearings is concerned. You could go higher with less throttle (stress from wedge heat) but in the end I think you need more = oil cooling.=20 =20 The race car needs 90 water tops and 190 oil tops. At 100 PSI.=20 =20 Lynn E Hanover=20 =20 =20 _____ =20 See what's free at AOL.com = . -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01C7AB2E.D4D9FE50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Mark;

 

I think your pressure is just = fine. I was told by Atkins that he had installed a 100 psi relief valve, and = early on I did see 100psi pressure when the engine was cool.  After 40 some = hours on the engine now I see pressure of 50-60 at idly at operating temp, and = about 80 at power and high oil temp.

 

I had my oil cooler designed and = tested to 150 psi.  I use dual K&N HP3001 filters on a remote mount = between the engine exit and the cooler.

 

Al

 

 

-----Original = Message-----
From: Rotary motors in = aircraft [mailto:flyrotary@lancaironline.net] On Behalf Of Mark Steitle
Sent: Saturday, June 09, = 2007 3:54 PM
To: Rotary motors in = aircraft
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: = Oil temp limit

 

Lynn,

 

Can you address the oil pressure limits too please.  My 20B runs in the 90's (warm).  Will this hurt anything.  In order to check/modify the relief valve, I would have = to remove the oil pan which means removing the engine from the = airframe.  If I'm ok running in this range, I will leave it as is.  I would like = to hear your take on this.

 

Thanks,

Mark S.

 

On = 6/9/07, Lehanover@aol.com <Lehanover@aol.com> = wrote:

In a message dated 6/9/2007 12:56:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, ALVentures@cox.net writes:

I guess we've = had this discussion before but to me it still seems like a grey = area.

 <= /font>

The limit has = to do with temperature, time, and limiting component.

 <= /font>

At typical = cruise conditions I have coolant temps of 160-170F and oil temps about 20 = degrees higher.  Short term climb out (1000 – 2000') I see oil = getting up 215 -220 and coolant around 200.  If I continue climb, I need to = reduce power to keep them at those levels; which means climb rates of 500-700 = FPM with OAT of 65F, and maybe a bit less if OAT is higher.  I don't like = being limited to that climb rate when I have power for considerably more; but = the real question is: Is that temp level an issue if sustained for 10-15 = minutes? And what is it affecting?

 <= /font>

I expect to = make some modification to improve airflow through the cooler, just deciding if it = is urgent or if it can wait for another 10 -20 hrs of flying. Anytime I go = east from my airport I have to climb from 1400' to about 7000' to clear high terrain.

 <= /font>

Thanks,=

 <= /font>

 Al

The object of controlling oil temperature is that temps above 160 degrees = begins to reduce power as rotor face temps begin to limit cylinder filling. =

 

Second,

The oil temperatures in the wedge will be very much higher than the temperature = being reported on the gage. The bearing area is way over sized for the stress = levels involved and at the low RPM in aviation use, the bearings will not fail = from stress.

 

However the soft overlay on the bearing face has a low melting point. Oil moving = off the bearing carries away the heat from wedge oil. In racing the higher = oil pressures used, helps perform this function.

 

Some racers just machine off the overlay and run on the copper. Good bearing material, and a high melting point. Extra clearance allows more oil flow = for a given pressure.

 

The rotor face can run as high as 400 degrees, and the oil is removing most = of that.  

By the time you get to 230 degrees in the sump you are walking on thin ice, as = far as rotor bearings is concerned. You could go higher with less throttle = (stress from wedge heat) but in the end I think you need more oil cooling. =

 

The race car needs 90 water tops and 190 oil tops. At 100 PSI. =

 

Lynn E Hanover 

 

 



See what's free = at AOL.com. =


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