X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2079261 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 01 Jun 2007 17:18:20 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l51LHJ6N024768 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:17:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <003101c7a492$457dc7c0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Re: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 17:17:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine You are right, Bob. My experience with SAG (quite a bit actually) is that it is at its more frequent and worst at high power settings - like right after take off. One day on way to Tennessee, I loaded up my RV-6A with fuel at a small airport around mid day and took off. Both rotors (usually its only one at a time) immediately went into SAG with me heavily loaded with fuel and gear. My heart was a thumping and the seat cushion was also taking a beating - until I realized I was still climbing at 500 fpm. While far below my normal 1200 fpm+, it was better than I got on a Cessna 150 on most days. So I orbited the airport and climbed to 5000 feet over it. Then I pulled back on the power, the condition cleared up and off to Memphis I went. I met Tracy Crook there and described my problem and he handed me a set of spark plugs - he always carries an extra set and so do I now. So don't know whether SAG had anything to do with your problem, but folks should be aware because it can act a lot like an injector problem - I tore my hair out over it when I first encountered it for days, taking the intake off, swapping injectors, etc. Then when I was describing the problem/symptoms to Tracy Crook, he is the one who suggested it might be a spark plug problem. Changed the sparkplugs and problem went away. I generally get from 20 - 30 hours with 100 LL but it has been as few as 12 and as many as 38 hours on a set. Ed ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob White" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 4:48 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston > Now that is interesting. The plugs have a little over 10 hours on them > but I'm running 100LL and may not have had the mixture set very well > for part of that time. I didn't know turning off a set of injectors > would help SAG. It could be that if I had disabled the secondaries > instead, that would have helped too. I will look for any evidence of a > ground problem in the EFI cable too but I think it was in pretty good > shape. > > If it was SAG, I would have been in deep trouble if it had happened > just after liftoff. (Actually true no mater what the cause.) That's > another thing too, I wasn't running at full power at the time and my > understanding is that SAG is worse at WOT. > > Bob W. > > > On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 16:17:42 -0400 > "Ed Anderson" wrote: > >> If it bogged down, Bob. That implies to me that it was getting too much >> fuel. An injector could stick open because of a short to its grounding >> wire. If it did then removing power from the injector by turning off the >> injector switch would cause it to close again. The only other thing I >> can >> think would be spark plug SAG which will cause the engine to lose rpm and >> EGT on the affected rotor to drop. I have been able to temporarily get >> rid >> of the SAG by turning off one pair or the other for a moment. >> >> Doubling the flow with the cold start will work Ok provided only 1/2 of >> your >> injectors are enabled. >> >> Ed >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bob White" >> To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 3:46 PM >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was >> [FlyRotary] >> Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> > Hi Ed, >> > >> > I guess I has assumed the injector couldn't be stuck open because I >> > would have been getting way too much gas to the engine and disabling it >> > wouldn't have helped because it would still be stuck open. Further >> > flow thru the secondaries would be doubled because cold start was >> > activated giving me extra gas. I could probably have answered that >> > question if I had taken a look at the EGT's and mixture. >> > >> > The engine ran normally with the primaries disabled but wouldn't make >> > power with them enabled. It didn't run rough, it just bogged down. >> > >> > Bob W. >> > >> > On Fri, 1 Jun 2007 15:10:33 -0400 >> > "Ed Anderson" wrote: >> > >> >> Sorry, Mike, responded to the wrong question. Regarding Bob' problem: >> >> >> >> IF you have one or more of your primary injectors stick open (for >> >> whatever reason) then the extremely excessive fuel flow could drown >> >> your >> >> engine or at best make it operate abnormally. >> >> >> >> By switching off the primaries and leaving only the secondaries on - >> >> he >> >> temporarily removed whatever in the primary circuit was causing the >> >> problem - my guess is that it would be an injector sticking open. >> >> But >> >> even if it was an injector sticking close and causing abnormal engine >> >> running due to too little fuel - by switching off the offending pair >> >> causes the EC2 to double the fuel flow of the remaining injector pair >> >> so >> >> you end up with the fuel needed to stay in the air. >> >> >> >> It could have just as easily been the other way around, having to >> >> switch >> >> off the secondary injectors and fly home on the primary injector >> >> circuit. >> >> >> >> That is one of the advantages of having the injector "disable/enable" >> >> switch - you can use them to identify and remove the injector pair >> >> causing the problem - if that is indeed the problem. >> >> >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Michael LaFleur >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 2:53 PM >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: Injector disable swtich orientation was >> >> [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> >> >> >> Not Buly's problem, Bob's problem. The one at 8500 feet. >> >> >> >> Why would his engine run only with the secondary injectors? >> >> >> >> Mike LaFleur >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> >> From: Ed Anderson >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 9:19:58 AM >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Injector disable swtich orientation was >> >> [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> >> >> >> Mike, I believe the "problem" was in the orientation of the injector >> >> disable switches in the panel. >> >> >> >> Normally, as you know, the convention for switches is "UP" is ON >> >> and >> >> "DOWN" is OFF. However, in reading the schematic for wiring the >> >> switches, they were (in this case) installed so that "UP" was OFF and >> >> "DOWN" was ON (just backwards). >> >> >> >> So with the switches in the UP position (believing that turned the >> >> power on to them) the engine would not start because in reality the >> >> injectors were actually turned off. So a very simple solution (once >> >> the >> >> problem was recognized) was to flip the switches DOWN (which in this >> >> case turned the power on). >> >> >> >> The permanent solution is to rotate the switches to the >> >> conventional >> >> orientation where UP is truly ON. >> >> >> >> Ed >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Michael LaFleur >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:21 AM >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> >> >> >> What was the root cause of your problem? I'm thinking there's >> >> something seriously wrong when you have to disable a set of injectors >> >> to >> >> get back running again. >> >> >> >> What was the long term fix to make sure this didn't happen again? >> >> >> >> That's the great thing about a forum such as this is that we can >> >> all >> >> learn from each others incidents and make all our planes safer. >> >> >> >> Mike LaFleur >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> >> From: Bob White >> >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:05:56 PM >> >> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> >> >> >> >> Hi Mike, >> >> >> >> On the rotary engine, it's extremely valuable. I was happily >> >> flying >> >> along at 8500 ft. 10 miles from the airport when the engine >> >> suddenly >> >> lost power (Ground level here is about 6000 ft.) I wasn't getting >> >> enough power to maintain altitude. First I switched to the B >> >> controller, no help. While looking at which field I wanted to land >> >> in, >> >> I started looking for more things to try. The next step I took >> >> was >> >> to >> >> disable the primary injectors. The engine took off again and I >> >> continued the flight to land at the airport. The injector disable >> >> switch saved me from an off airport landing. >> >> >> >> Bob W. (It wasn't a great landing!) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:35:43 -0700 (PDT) >> >> Michael LaFleur wrote: >> >> >> >> > Is there a reason you need an injector disable switch? >> >> > >> >> > Just looks like another failure point and an increase in risk. >> >> > >> >> > Mike LaFleur >> >> > >> >> > ----- Original Message ---- >> >> > From: Mark Steitle >> >> > To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19:39 AM >> >> > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> > >> >> > Dave, >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Congradulations on first start!!! It is a real rush to hear >> >> your >> >> baby breathe its first breath. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > As for the "Disable" switches, Tracy and I had a discussion on >> >> this >> >> issue just a few weeks back. He assured me that I wasn't the only one >> >> confused by the logic of the disable switches. He now recommends that >> >> UP >> >> be ON (normal operation), and DOWN be DISABLE. My little pea brain >> >> understands that. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Glad you figured it out so quickly. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Mark S. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > On 5/30/07, David Staten wrote: >> >> > We are prolly gonna go with UP for ON and DOWN for OFF. That >> >> seems >> >> to be >> >> > the simplest for us southerners :) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Yea.. it was the injector power switches. >> >> > >> >> > Dave >> >> > >> >> > Bob White wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >Congratulations Dave and Chris. Brings back memories of my >> >> first >> >> > >engine start. Are the switches you had to turn over the >> >> injector >> >> > >> >> > >disable switches? If that was my diagram, up is for _disable_ >> >> and >> >> down >> >> > >is for run! As long as they work the way you want that's the >> >> way >> >> to >> >> > >wire them. :) >> >> > > >> >> > >Bob W. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:10:06 -0500 >> >> > >"Christopher Barber" wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >>Oh, and for those playing along, we did install the check >> >> valve >> >> properly . So far only a minor oil leak from a plug in the engine >> >> Dave thinks he may have just snugged in by hand and forgot to tell me >> >> to >> >> get back to and a small coolent leak on a temporay hose connection. >> >> Really, really small in both cases....almost non issues. FWIW. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >>Thanks again for y'all's support and well wishes. >> >> > >> >> >> > >>All the best, >> >> > >> >> >> > >>Chris >> >> > >>Houston, Texas >> >> > >>Ellington Field (EFD) >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> > >> From: Christopher Barber >> >> > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft >> >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:54 PM >> >> > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> It actually started. We turned it off and it started again. >> >> WAHOOOOO. But a mear wahoooo doesn't quite express the amazing >> >> feeling >> >> and sense of accomplisment of first engine start of the 2nd gen, turbo >> >> housing 13b. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> David and I rebuilt it about 1.5 years ago. Dave did most >> >> the >> >> teardown, cleaning, measureing tolerance etc and we both rebuilt it >> >> following along Bruce T's video and the Haynes shop manual. Dave >> >> final >> >> install on the CC engine mount and Tracy's PSRU. I ran the wires, >> >> hoses...and the rest. A true joint effort. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> We tried last night to no avail. Turns out when I wired the >> >> injector switches based on a great diagram from the Flyrotary list, >> >> the >> >> illustration stated "top" and I installed that end up with the swithes >> >> being up when on. However, when I was checking my wires this pm I >> >> noticed that power was coming through the switch when the switch was >> >> down.....doh! So, I turned them over and rechecked the rest of my >> >> wires >> >> and grounds. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> In a damn optomistic gesture while in a pessimistic mood, my >> >> hangar mate, Richard Sessions (who is restoring a VariEZ) and my S/O, >> >> Jana and I pushed the tale of the Velocity out the hangar door (of >> >> course >> >> it started sprinkling ) (Dave was still at work). We took basic >> >> security procedures, ie showing Jana how to use the fire estingusher. >> >> I >> >> turned on the switches (including the now correclty mounted injector >> >> switches), turned on the primary fuel pump, hit the starter button and >> >> DAMN, it fired.........SCARED THE HELL out of us.......you should have >> >> seen my two Cairn Terriers (Winston and Madison) head for the hills >> >> (well, Houston has no hills, but y'all get the idea). We kinda looked >> >> at >> >> each other in a mixed shock and amazement and checke that we didn't >> >> blow >> >> anything off. We actually mixed fuel, air, compression and spark and >> >> got >> >> combustion.....who'ed of thunk it? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> We waited for the portable battery charger/starter to bring >> >> the >> >> battery back up and tried again. Switches up, Pumps on, press the >> >> starter >> >> button......damn, it sputtered and started (after some cranking). It >> >> started to rev really fast, or seeminly so, so I brought the throttle >> >> to >> >> closed, which didn't stop it, so I cut the fuel pump and it stopped. >> >> Go >> >> figure. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Well, we did this a few more times, never running it too >> >> long >> >> since we do not yet have sensors on it yet. Also, Dave got off work >> >> and >> >> came by to join the fun. Just the fact it actually ran was great. >> >> Now >> >> that Tracy should be getting back into town, we should be able to >> >> order >> >> the correct sensors to replace the ones that were missplaced along the >> >> way. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Not quite sure what to work on now. Obviously we will want >> >> to >> >> smooth it out and get it to start easily. It is currently running >> >> better >> >> on B than A. I may have inavertanly changed someting on A while >> >> messing >> >> with it during start sessions (may need to reset A...donno yet). I >> >> think >> >> I will now try to start to clean up the wiring so as to make it easier >> >> to >> >> manipulate the stuff in the cabin. Righ now the panel is laying where >> >> the front seats should be. So this may be a good starting point while >> >> waiting for sensors that will let me know I am not ruining my new >> >> engine. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Y'all's support and words of wisdom, along with Tracy Crooks >> >> great products it what helped make this a reality. Thanks for being >> >> there. NOW THE REAL WORK (read that as fun) BEGINS. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Dave will be posting a much more technical account >> >> soon....heck, I bet we both rushed home so we could annouce it to the >> >> world. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Thanks. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> All the best, >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> Chris >> >> > >> Velocity N17010 >> >> > >> w/ a Rotary 13b...that actually runs. >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Homepage: >> >> > http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> > Archive and UnSub: >> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com >> >> 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding >> >> Cables for your rotary installation - >> >> http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> >> Archive and UnSub: >> >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com >> > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding >> > Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ >> > >> > -- >> > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> > Archive and UnSub: >> > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >> >> >> -- >> Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ >> Archive and UnSub: >> http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html > > > -- > N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com > 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding > Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ > > -- > Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: > http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html