X-Virus-Scanned: clean according to Sophos on Logan.com Return-Path: Received: from ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com ([24.25.9.102] verified) by logan.com (CommuniGate Pro SMTP 5.1.9) with ESMTP id 2078492 for flyrotary@lancaironline.net; Fri, 01 Jun 2007 09:20:40 -0400 Received-SPF: pass receiver=logan.com; client-ip=24.25.9.102; envelope-from=eanderson@carolina.rr.com Received: from edward2 (cpe-024-074-103-061.carolina.res.rr.com [24.74.103.61]) by ms-smtp-03.southeast.rr.com (8.13.6/8.13.6) with SMTP id l51DJjKr005348 for ; Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:19:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <002801c7a44f$8df517d0$2402a8c0@edward2> From: "Ed Anderson" To: "Rotary motors in aircraft" References: Subject: Injector disable swtich orientation was [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2007 09:19:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0025_01C7A42E.0694BB90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Virus-Scanned: Symantec AntiVirus Scan Engine This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C7A42E.0694BB90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike, I believe the "problem" was in the orientation of the injector = disable switches in the panel. Normally, as you know, the convention for switches is "UP" is ON and = "DOWN" is OFF. However, in reading the schematic for wiring the = switches, they were (in this case) installed so that "UP" was OFF and = "DOWN" was ON (just backwards). =20 So with the switches in the UP position (believing that turned the power = on to them) the engine would not start because in reality the injectors = were actually turned off. So a very simple solution (once the problem = was recognized) was to flip the switches DOWN (which in this case = turned the power on).=20 The permanent solution is to rotate the switches to the conventional = orientation where UP is truly ON. Ed From: Michael LaFleur=20 To: Rotary motors in aircraft=20 Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:21 AM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston What was the root cause of your problem? I'm thinking there's = something seriously wrong when you have to disable a set of injectors to = get back running again. What was the long term fix to make sure this didn't happen again? That's the great thing about a forum such as this is that we can all = learn from each others incidents and make all our planes safer. Mike LaFleur ----- Original Message ---- From: Bob White To: Rotary motors in aircraft Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:05:56 PM Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston Hi Mike, On the rotary engine, it's extremely valuable. I was happily flying along at 8500 ft. 10 miles from the airport when the engine suddenly lost power (Ground level here is about 6000 ft.) I wasn't getting enough power to maintain altitude. First I switched to the B controller, no help. While looking at which field I wanted to land in, I started looking for more things to try. The next step I took was to disable the primary injectors. The engine took off again and I continued the flight to land at the airport. The injector disable switch saved me from an off airport landing.=20 Bob W. (It wasn't a great landing!) On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:35:43 -0700 (PDT) Michael LaFleur wrote: > Is there a reason you need an injector disable switch? >=20 > Just looks like another failure point and an increase in risk. >=20 > Mike LaFleur >=20 > ----- Original Message ---- > From: Mark Steitle > To: Rotary motors in aircraft > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 8:19:39 AM > Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >=20 > Dave, >=20 > =20 >=20 > Congradulations on first start!!! It is a real rush to hear your = baby breathe its first breath. =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > As for the "Disable" switches, Tracy and I had a discussion on this = issue just a few weeks back. He assured me that I wasn't the only one = confused by the logic of the disable switches. He now recommends that = UP be ON (normal operation), and DOWN be DISABLE. My little pea brain = understands that. >=20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Glad you figured it out so quickly. =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > Mark S. =20 >=20 > =20 >=20 > On 5/30/07, David Staten wrote: > We are prolly gonna go with UP for ON and DOWN for OFF. That seems = to be > the simplest for us southerners :) >=20 >=20 > Yea.. it was the injector power switches. >=20 > Dave >=20 > Bob White wrote: >=20 > >Congratulations Dave and Chris. Brings back memories of my first > >engine start. Are the switches you had to turn over the injector >=20 > >disable switches? If that was my diagram, up is for _disable_ and = down > >is for run! As long as they work the way you want that's the way = to > >wire them. :) > > > >Bob W. > > > > >=20 > >On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:10:06 -0500 > >"Christopher Barber" wrote: > > > > > > > >>Oh, and for those playing along, we did install the check valve = properly . So far only a minor oil leak from a plug in the engine = Dave thinks he may have just snugged in by hand and forgot to tell me to = get back to and a small coolent leak on a temporay hose connection. = Really, really small in both cases....almost non issues. FWIW. >=20 > >> > >>Thanks again for y'all's support and well wishes. > >> > >>All the best, > >> > >>Chris > >>Houston, Texas > >>Ellington Field (EFD) > >> >=20 > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Christopher Barber > >> To: Rotary motors in aircraft > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:54 PM > >> Subject: [FlyRotary] It is ALIVE!!! First Start in Houston >=20 > >> > >> > >> It actually started. We turned it off and it started again. = WAHOOOOO. But a mear wahoooo doesn't quite express the amazing feeling = and sense of accomplisment of first engine start of the 2nd gen, turbo = housing 13b. >=20 > >> > >> David and I rebuilt it about 1.5 years ago. Dave did most the = teardown, cleaning, measureing tolerance etc and we both rebuilt it = following along Bruce T's video and the Haynes shop manual. Dave final = install on the CC engine mount and Tracy's PSRU. I ran the wires, = hoses...and the rest. A true joint effort. >=20 > >> > >> We tried last night to no avail. Turns out when I wired the = injector switches based on a great diagram from the Flyrotary list, the = illustration stated "top" and I installed that end up with the swithes = being up when on. However, when I was checking my wires this pm I = noticed that power was coming through the switch when the switch was = down.....doh! So, I turned them over and rechecked the rest of my wires = and grounds. >=20 > >> > >> In a damn optomistic gesture while in a pessimistic mood, my = hangar mate, Richard Sessions (who is restoring a VariEZ) and my S/O, = Jana and I pushed the tale of the Velocity out the hangar door (of = course it started sprinkling ) (Dave was still at work). We took = basic security procedures, ie showing Jana how to use the fire = estingusher. I turned on the switches (including the now correclty = mounted injector switches), turned on the primary fuel pump, hit the = starter button and DAMN, it fired.........SCARED THE HELL out of = us.......you should have seen my two Cairn Terriers (Winston and = Madison) head for the hills (well, Houston has no hills, but y'all get = the idea). We kinda looked at each other in a mixed shock and amazement = and checke that we didn't blow anything off. We actually mixed fuel, = air, compression and spark and got combustion.....who'ed of thunk it? >=20 > >> > >> We waited for the portable battery charger/starter to bring the = battery back up and tried again. Switches up, Pumps on, press the = starter button......damn, it sputtered and started (after some = cranking). It started to rev really fast, or seeminly so, so I brought = the throttle to closed, which didn't stop it, so I cut the fuel pump and = it stopped. Go figure. >=20 > >> > >> Well, we did this a few more times, never running it too long = since we do not yet have sensors on it yet. Also, Dave got off work and = came by to join the fun. Just the fact it actually ran was great. Now = that Tracy should be getting back into town, we should be able to order = the correct sensors to replace the ones that were missplaced along the = way. >=20 > >> > >> Not quite sure what to work on now. Obviously we will want to = smooth it out and get it to start easily. It is currently running = better on B than A. I may have inavertanly changed someting on A while = messing with it during start sessions (may need to reset A...donno yet). = I think I will now try to start to clean up the wiring so as to make it = easier to manipulate the stuff in the cabin. Righ now the panel is = laying where the front seats should be. So this may be a good starting = point while waiting for sensors that will let me know I am not ruining = my new engine. >=20 > >> > >> Y'all's support and words of wisdom, along with Tracy Crooks = great products it what helped make this a reality. Thanks for being = there. NOW THE REAL WORK (read that as fun) BEGINS. >=20 > >> > >> Dave will be posting a much more technical account soon....heck, = I bet we both rushed home so we could annouce it to the world. > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> All the best, >=20 > >> > >> Chris > >> Velocity N17010 > >> w/ a Rotary 13b...that actually runs. > >> > >> > > > > > > > > >=20 >=20 > -- > Homepage: =20 > http://www.flyrotary.com/ > Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --=20 N93BD - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com 3.8 Hours Total Time and holding Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/ -- Homepage: http://www.flyrotary.com/ Archive and UnSub: = http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.html ------=_NextPart_000_0025_01C7A42E.0694BB90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike, I believe the "problem" was in the = orientation of=20 the injector disable switches in the panel.
 
 Normally, as you know, the convention for = switches=20  is "UP" is ON and "DOWN" is OFF.  However, in reading the = schematic=20 for wiring the switches, they were (in this case) installed so that "UP" = was OFF=20 and "DOWN" was ON (just backwards). 
 
So with the switches in the UP position = (believing that=20 turned the power on to them) the engine would not start because in = reality=20 the injectors were actually turned off.  So a very simple = solution=20 (once the problem was recognized)  was to flip the switches = DOWN=20 (which in this case turned the power on). 
 
 The permanent solution is to rotate the = switches to=20 the conventional orientation where UP is truly ON.
 
Ed
 
 
 
 
Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 = 8:21 AM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is = ALIVE!!!=20 First Start in Houston

What=20 was the root cause of your problem? I'm thinking there's something = seriously=20 wrong when you have to disable a set of injectors to get back running=20 again.

What was the long term fix to make sure this didn't = happen=20 again?

That's the great thing about a forum such as this is = that we can=20 all learn from each others incidents and make all our planes=20 safer.

Mike LaFleur

-----=20 Original Message ----
From: Bob White = <rlwhite@comcast.net>
To:=20 Rotary motors in aircraft <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
Sent: = Thursday, May 31, 2007 12:05:56 PM
Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is = ALIVE!!!=20 First Start in Houston

Hi Mike,

On the rotary engine, it's extremely=20 valuable.  I was happily flying
along at 8500 ft. 10 = miles from=20 the airport when the engine suddenly
lost power (Ground level here = is about=20 6000 ft.)  I wasn't getting
enough power to maintain=20 altitude.  First I switched to the B
controller, no help. = While=20 looking at which field I wanted to land in,
I started looking for = more=20 things to try.  The next step I took was to
disable the = primary=20 injectors.  The engine took off again and I
continued the = flight=20 to land at the airport.  The injector disable
switch = saved me=20 from an off airport landing.

Bob W.  (It wasn't a = great=20 landing!)



On Thu, 31 May 2007 08:35:43 -0700 = (PDT)
Michael=20 LaFleur <mike.lafleur@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Is there = a=20 reason you need an injector disable switch?
>
> Just = looks like=20 another failure point and an increase in risk.
>
> Mike=20 LaFleur
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: = Mark=20 Steitle <msteitle@gmail.com>
> To: Rotary motors in = aircraft=20 <flyrotary@lancaironline.net>
> Sent: Thursday, May 31, = 2007=20 8:19:39 AM
> Subject: [FlyRotary] Re: It is ALIVE!!! First Start = in=20 Houston
>
> Dave,
>
>  
> =
>=20 Congradulations on first start!!!  It is a real rush to hear = your=20 baby breathe its first breath.  
>=20
>  
>
> As for the "Disable" switches, = Tracy and=20 I had a discussion on this issue just a few weeks back.  He = assured=20 me that I wasn't the only one confused by the logic of the disable=20 switches.  He now recommends that UP be ON (normal = operation), and=20 DOWN be DISABLE.  My little pea brain understands = that.
>=20
>
>  
>
> Glad you figured it out = so=20 quickly.  
>
>  
>
> = Mark=20 S.  
>
>  
>
> On = 5/30/07, David=20 Staten <Dastaten@earthlink.net> wrote:
> We are prolly = gonna go=20 with UP for ON and DOWN for OFF. That seems to be
> the simplest = for us=20 southerners :)
>
>
> Yea.. it was the injector = power=20 switches.
>
> Dave
>
> Bob White = wrote:
>=20
> >Congratulations Dave and Chris.  Brings back = memories=20 of my first
> >engine start.  Are the switches you = had to=20 turn over the injector
>
> >disable = switches?  If=20 that was my diagram, up is for _disable_ and down
> >is for=20 run!  As long as they work the way you want that's the way=20 to
> >wire them. :)
> >
> >Bob W.
>=20 >
> >
>
> >On Wed, 30 May 2007 22:10:06=20 -0500
> >"Christopher Barber" = <CBarber@TexasAttorney.net>=20 wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Oh, and = for=20 those playing along, we did install the check valve properly=20 <g>.  So far only a minor oil leak from a plug in the = engine=20 Dave thinks he may have just snugged in by hand and forgot to tell me = to get=20 back to and a small coolent leak on a temporay hose=20 connection.  Really, really small in both cases....almost = non=20 issues.  FWIW.
>
> >>
> = >>Thanks=20 again for y'all's support and well wishes.
> >>
>=20 >>All the best,
> >>
> >>Chris
>=20 >>Houston, Texas
> >>Ellington Field (EFD)
>=20 >>
>
> >>  ----- Original Message=20 -----
> >>  From: Christopher Barber
>=20 >>  To: Rotary motors in aircraft
>=20 >>  Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2007 9:54 PM
>=20 >>  Subject: [FlyRotary] It is ALIVE!!! First Start in = Houston
>
> >>
> >>
>=20 >>  It actually started.  We turned it off = and it=20 started again.  WAHOOOOO.  But a mear wahoooo = doesn't=20 quite express the amazing feeling and sense of accomplisment of first = engine=20 start of the 2nd gen, turbo housing 13b.
>
> = >>
>=20 >>  David and I rebuilt it about 1.5 years=20 ago.  Dave did most the teardown, cleaning, measureing = tolerance etc=20 and we both rebuilt it following along Bruce T's video and the Haynes = shop=20 manual.  Dave final install on the CC engine mount and = Tracy's=20 PSRU.  I ran the wires, hoses...and the rest.  A = true=20 joint effort.
>
> >>
> >>  We = tried=20 last night to no avail.  Turns out when I wired the injector = switches based on a great diagram from the Flyrotary list, the = illustration=20 stated "top" and I installed that end up with the swithes being up = when=20 on.  However, when I was checking my wires this pm I noticed = that=20 power was coming through the switch when the switch was=20 down.....doh!  So, I turned them over and rechecked the rest = of my=20 wires and grounds.
>
> >>
> = >>  In a=20 damn optomistic gesture while in a pessimistic mood, my hangar mate, = Richard=20 Sessions (who is restoring a VariEZ) and my S/O, Jana and I pushed the = tale of=20 the Velocity out the hangar door (of course it started sprinkling = <g>)=20 (Dave was still at work).  We took basic security = procedures, ie=20 showing Jana how to use the fire estingusher.  I turned on = the=20 switches (including the now correclty mounted injector switches), = turned on=20 the primary fuel pump, hit the starter button and DAMN, it=20 fired.........SCARED THE HELL out of us.......you should have seen my = two=20 Cairn Terriers (Winston and Madison) head for the hills (well, Houston = has no=20 hills, but y'all get the idea).  We kinda looked at each = other in a=20 mixed shock and amazement and checke that we didn't blow anything=20 off.  We actually mixed fuel, air, compression and spark and = got=20 combustion.....who'ed of thunk it?
>
> >>
>=20 >>  We waited for the portable battery charger/starter = to=20 bring the battery back up and tried again. Switches up, Pumps on, = press the=20 starter button......damn, it  sputtered and started (after = some=20 cranking).  It started to rev really fast, or seeminly so, = so I=20 brought the throttle to closed, which didn't stop it, so I cut the = fuel pump=20 and it stopped. Go figure.
>
> >>
>=20 >>  Well, we did this a few more times, never running = it too=20 long since we do not yet have sensors on it yet. Also, Dave got off = work and=20 came by to join the fun.  Just the fact it actually ran was=20 great.  Now that Tracy should be getting back into town, we = should=20 be able to order the correct sensors to replace the ones that were = missplaced=20 along the way.
>
> >>
> = >>  Not quite=20 sure what to work on now.  Obviously we will want to smooth = it out=20 and get it to start easily.  It is currently running better = on B=20 than A.  I may have inavertanly changed someting on A while = messing=20 with it during start sessions (may need to reset A...donno = yet).  I=20 think I will now try to start to clean up the wiring so as to make it = easier=20 to manipulate the stuff in the cabin.  Righ now the panel is = laying=20 where the front seats should be.  So this may be a good = starting=20 point while waiting for sensors that will let me know I am not ruining = my new=20 engine.
>
> >>
> >>  Y'all's = support=20 and words of wisdom, along with Tracy Crooks great products it what = helped=20 make this a reality.  Thanks for being there.   = NOW THE=20 REAL WORK (read that as fun) BEGINS.
>
> >>
> = >>  Dave will be posting a much more technical account = soon....heck, I bet we both rushed home so we could annouce it to the=20 world.
> >>
> >>  Thanks.
>=20 >>
> >>  All the best,
>
>=20 >>
> >>  Chris
>=20 >>  Velocity N17010
> >>  w/ a = Rotary=20 13b...that actually runs.
> >>
> >>
>=20 >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>=20 --
> Homepage:  
> http://www.flyrotary.com/
> Archive and=20 UnSub:   http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l
>=20
>
>
>
>
>
>


-- =
N93BD=20 - Rotary Powered BD-4 - http://www.bob-white.com
3.8 Hours Total Time = and=20 holding
Cables for your rotary installation - http://www.roblinphoto.com/shop/

--
Homepag= e:  http://www.flyrotary.com/
Archive and = UnSub:  =20 http://mail.lancaironline.net:81/lists/flyrotary/List.htm= l

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